Josh Allen or Justin Herbert

[VanS]

4 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

He already proved you wrong.

Why do some of ya'll have a problem with letting things play themselves out?  Ya'll wanna crown guys or bury them after one to two years.  20 games no matter how good don't make a career.  Carson Wentz looked like he was headed for the Hall of Fame in 2017.  Jared Goff fooled many into thinking he was elite in 2017-2018.  

If Herbert is as great as you think he is then he will keep this up and make me look stupid every year.  Why are you so scared of simply letting things play themselves out?  I remember last year when many  doubted if Josh Allen was as good as the numbers he was putting up.  I simply said bet against Josh Allen at your own risk because I knew he would only make them look even more foolish.

Only those who don't have confidence in their position require others to immediately agree with them.  

 

[Bearerofnews]

27 minutes ago, VanS said:

Why do some of ya'll have a problem with letting things play themselves out?  Ya'll wanna crown guys or bury them after one to two years.  20 games no matter how good don't make a career.  Carson Wentz looked like he was headed for the Hall of Fame in 2017.  Jared Goff fooled many into thinking he was elite in 2017-2018.  

If Herbert is as great as you think he is then he will keep this up and make me look stupid every year.  Why are you so scared of simply letting things play themselves out?  I remember last year when many  doubted if Josh Allen was as good as the numbers he was putting up.  I simply said bet against Josh Allen at your own risk because I knew he would only make them look even more foolish.

Only those who don't have confidence in their position require others to immediately agree with them.  

 

Because 1, there is not a single thing tangible that supports your dumb take.

If your take was Herbert is great, but i don't think he will sustain being this great, then having him prove it with more than 20 starts is one thing.

Your take was Herbert isnt even good. When virtually nothing you can point to supports that. His film is elite, his skill sets, talent and ability are elite and his numbers are elite.

You made dumb proclamations about Allen year 1 and 2 when his film was not good nor was his numbers. Making bad takes, swinging in the dark with no type of foundation makes you look clueless or like a troll. 

You can't even begin to justify "he isnt even good".

Allen was not what you claimed when you claimed it, he then went and proved it.

Herbert is already proving you wrong/clueless. It isn't a matter of projecting like you did. It is actually happening.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bearerofnews

[The BILLievers]

4 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

He already proved you wrong. You keep proving everyone right; to be clueless.  You really had a chance to prove you weren't a troll after you took this dumb stance last year and as Herbert has even ascended beyond last year and is absolutely great/elite and his career trajectory has been much better than Allen's. Herbert in year 2 is where Allen is year 4. 

Some people have 0 knowledge of how to assess QB play. You are those "some people".

Such a tired take imo. Josh Allen when drafted was called one of the biggest projects ever, super high ceiling but super low floor; he was never supposed to really play his first two years but was forced into it. I mean he didn't receive any scholarships, went to a juco then played at Wyoming. I don't think it's fair to stay Herberts better than Allen in year 2 so he's going to be better. It's like Salah the other day in regards to Zac Wilson saying "well if you look at Josh Allens first 5 games and where he's at now in comparison to Zac Wilson...". I'm biased but Josh Allen is an anomaly to QB development. 

I think Herbert is a better pure pocket passer but Allen has the superior arm talent, mobility and playmaking. The way he steps up into the pocket is Brady like but then has the legs and awareness to bounce the play outside and throw on the run. 

And let me just say I love Herbert too, you really can't go wrong. I think Mahomes/Herbert/Allen and Lamar are going to dominate the AFC for the next 20 years lol.

 

 

[SBLIII]

1 hour ago, The BILLievers said:

 

And let me just say I love Herbert too, you really can't go wrong. I think Mahomes/Herbert/Allen and Lamar are going to dominate the AFC for the next 20 years lol.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that one. We are seeing QBs are getting better at a quick pace and no older QBs except Brady and Rodgers can hang anymore. 

In the future you will see QBs enter the league who are twice as freakish compared to what we are seeing right now and they will get better and better. I think it's a never ending cycle of evolution.

Just last offseason you were seeing threads like Mahomes will win 8 or more Super Bowls and now Herbert, Allen, Lamar are on his level.

I expect to see even bigger monsters enter this league here soon. It's going to be exciting.

[The BILLievers]

1 hour ago, SBLIII said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that one. We are seeing QBs are getting better at a quick pace and no older QBs except Brady and Rodgers can hang anymore. 

In the future you will see QBs enter the league who are twice as freakish compared to what we are seeing right now and they will get better and better. I think it's a never ending cycle of evolution.

Just last offseason you were seeing threads like Mahomes will win 8 or more Super Bowls and now Herbert, Allen, Lamar are on his level.

I expect to see even bigger monsters enter this league here soon. It's going to be exciting.

I get what you're saying, it's just hard to fathom there being that many elite QBs in the NFL let alone just the AFC lol. Below are the "young/future QBs" not including the vets we all know like Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, etc.

AFC :

(5) - Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Lamar, Burrow (with potentially Lawerence, Baker, Z Wilson, M Jones)

NFC :

(2) - Kyler, Dak (with potentially Fields, Lance, Danny Dimes, Hurts)

 

Obviously we don't know where these future QB stars are going to end up but feel like the NFC young QBs aren't great and that's where some might emerge in future years. The AFC having Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Lamar, Burrow and the (3) rookies is insane. 

 

[VanS]

5 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Because 1, there is not a single thing tangible that supports your dumb take.

If your take was Herbert is great, but i don't think he will sustain being this great, then having him prove it with more than 20 starts is one thing.

Your take was Herbert isnt even good. When virtually nothing you can point to supports that. His film is elite, his skill sets, talent and ability are elite and his numbers are elite.

You made dumb proclamations about Allen year 1 and 2 when his film was not good nor was his numbers. Making bad takes, swinging in the dark with no type of foundation makes you look clueless or like a troll. 

You can't even begin to justify "he isnt even good".

Allen was not what you claimed when you claimed it, he then went and proved it.

Herbert is already proving you wrong/clueless. It isn't a matter of projecting like you did. It is actually happening.

Excuse me for being able to see talent without needing stats to back it up.  You claim I haven't supported my takes.  Well I can't teleport myself into your living room and show you on a play by play basis what made me believe in Josh Allen's greatness while doubting Herbert's apparent success.  That's why last year before the 2020 season I said I would let the future decide if my takes are right or wrong.  I judge players based on the eye test and unfortunately it's difficult to explain why some players are better than others unless I'm in the same room as you watching the same tape and telling you what I see.  It's why I said for me to be right about Allen, he will eventually have to start putting up huge numbers because he would eventually get adequate talent around him which would finally allow the stat sheet to reflect the talent he always had.

I don't buy into Herbert for the same reason I didn't buy into Jared Goff from 2017-2018. @jrry32can attest to this as we went back and forth on Goff like me and you are going about Herbert right now.  Despite their appearance of success, neither Herbert nor Goff ever impressed me when I watched them play.   I ended up being right about Goff being fool's gold.  We'll see what happens with Hebert.  

The fact I'm not afraid to stand by my pre-draft take on Herbert despite all his early success should let you know how confident I am in my thinking that this guy is not that good. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by VanS

[VanS]

5 hours ago, The BILLievers said:

Such a tired take imo. Josh Allen when drafted was called one of the biggest projects ever, super high ceiling but super low floor; he was never supposed to really play his first two years but was forced into it. I mean he didn't receive any scholarships, went to a juco then played at Wyoming. I don't think it's fair to stay Herberts better than Allen in year 2 so he's going to be better. It's like Salah the other day in regards to Zac Wilson saying "well if you look at Josh Allens first 5 games and where he's at now in comparison to Zac Wilson...". I'm biased but Josh Allen is an anomaly to QB development. 

I think Herbert is a better pure pocket passer but Allen has the superior arm talent, mobility and playmaking. The way he steps up into the pocket is Brady like but then has the legs and awareness to bounce the play outside and throw on the run. 

And let me just say I love Herbert too, you really can't go wrong. I think Mahomes/Herbert/Allen and Lamar are going to dominate the AFC for the next 20 years lol.

I wouldn't use this tactic to defend Allen.  He was not that raw coming out.  He just landed on a god awful team when it comes to talent on offense.  Think back to his rookie season when he wasn't playing.  The Bills didn't even look like a professional football team.  When he played they suddenly looked respectable.  I made these argument before his 2020 season.  I said if you watched Allen play in his first two years, you saw the potential he had.  He simply was being held back by a terrible supporting cast.

If Josh Allen came out in 2017 and was drafted by the Chiefs instead of Mahomes, its my contention he wins MVP in 2018 like Mahomes and is a potential 2x Super Bowl champion by now.  The only reason Josh Allen didn't blow up sooner is because of a lack of talent around him.  Not because he was the one who needed improve. 

[The BILLievers]

29 minutes ago, VanS said:

I wouldn't use this tactic to defend Allen.  He was not that raw coming out.  He just landed on a god awful team when it comes to talent on offense.  Think back to his rookie season when he wasn't playing.  The Bills didn't even look like a professional football team.  When he played they suddenly looked respectable.  I made these argument before his 2020 season.  I said if you watched Allen play in his first two years, you saw the potential he had.  He simply was being held back by a terrible supporting cast.

If Josh Allen came out in 2017 and was drafted by the Chiefs instead of Mahomes, its my contention he wins MVP in 2018 like Mahomes and is a potential 2x Super Bowl champion by now.  The only reason Josh Allen didn't blow up sooner is because of a lack of talent around him.  Not because he was the one who needed improve. 

We’ll agree to disagree to an extent. Even Allen said in an interview with Rich Eisen two days ago that he really started feeling confident in his play / new mechanics prior to the 2020 season (where he took off).

I do think the bills offensive talent was garbage when he got drafted and he would’ve been better on a different team, but I don’t agree that a 2018/19 Josh Allen on the chiefs could’ve been Mahomes.

regardless, he’s now in tier 1 of QBs and shouldn’t be going anywhere anytime soon

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Excuse me for being able to see talent without needing stats to back it up.  You claim I haven't supported my takes.  Well I can't teleport myself into your living room and show you on a play by play basis what made me believe in Josh Allen's greatness while doubting Herbert's apparent success.  That's why last year before the 2020 season I said I would let the future decide if my takes are right or wrong.  I judge players based on the eye test and unfortunately it's difficult to explain why some players are better than others unless I'm in the same room as you watching the same tape and telling you what I see.  It's why I said for me to be right about Allen, he will eventually have to start putting up huge numbers because he would eventually get adequate talent around him which would finally allow the stat sheet to reflect the talent he always had.

I don't buy into Herbert for the same reason I didn't buy into Jared Goff from 2017-2018. @jrry32can attest to this as we went back and forth on Goff like me and you are going about Herbert right now.  Despite their appearance of success, neither Herbert nor Goff ever impressed me when I watched them play.   I ended up being right about Goff being fool's gold.  We'll see what happens with Hebert.  

The fact I'm not afraid to stand by my pre-draft take on Herbert despite all his early success should let you know how confident I am in my thinking that this guy is not that good. 

You don't watch film, i am 100% certain of that. Goff and Herbert are nothing alike and Herbert has arguably the best film out right now and checks every box at an elite level from size, arm talent, arm strength, decision making, mobility, precision passing anywhere on the field, decisiveness,clutch, athleticism.

 

I am 100% guaranteeing you don't actually watch Herbert play in the NFL. The fact you are comparing him to Goff or even Wentz tells me that. If we actually were watching film of Herbert, there is 0% chance you would claim Allen was better. At best, even.

This is just you taking a bad take, sticking to it to be edgy, claiming if im wrong they will prove it.. but he already proved you beyond wrong. How is he gonna prove it if you don't value numbers and you don't actually watch his film.

I am 100% confident if we watch Herbert film together you would not have this absurd clueless take.

You are trying too hard to be right and look foolish in the process. Now i get why no one values your insight on QB play. 

But hey atleast you typed some words and tried saying something.

Exactly, your predraft take. Your horrible take is based on likely limited college film, not NFL film. The fact you haven't adjusted like everyone else who had the same predraft take doesn't show your confidence... sorry bud, it shows your ignorance.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bearerofnews

[RaidersAreOne]

Allen.

[VanS]

7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

How is he gonna prove it if you don't value numbers and you don't actually watch his film.

This is where you have me wrong.  I don't value numbers IN THE SHORT TERM (i.e. 1-2 seasons).  However, over a career I do.  It's why when I was defending Josh Allen in 2019 as an elite QB, I said he would eventually have to start putting up elite numbers to prove my eye test right.

It basically comes down to this.  Over a short sample size a player's true talent can be obscured.  For example, Jared Goff can look like a superstar over a two year span when he's on his rookie deal and has a super team surrounding him.  However, once he got paid and his supporting cast became less talented (as well as McVay no longer being able to tell him where to throw) he stopped looking like a star and more like the below average QB he really was.  Similarly, Josh Allen looked to have mediocre passing numbers when he had a lousy o-line and below average WRs.  However, once he got an elite #1 WR like Stefon Diggs and an improved o-line, he suddenly starts putting up MVP passing numbers.  Josh Allen didn't become an MVP caliber QB overnight.  He always had that talent.  He just finally got adequate support last year which allowed his talent fully shine.

I don't think Herbert is as bad as Goff.  There is some talent there.  But he is not as good as his first 20 games suggest.  I simply don't see that level of superstar when I watch him play.  We'll see if he keeps it up but I'm betting on a huge regression coming.  

[Bearerofnews]

2 hours ago, VanS said:

This is where you have me wrong.  I don't value numbers IN THE SHORT TERM (i.e. 1-2 seasons).  However, over a career I do.  It's why when I was defending Josh Allen in 2019 as an elite QB, I said he would eventually have to start putting up elite numbers to prove my eye test right.

It basically comes down to this.  Over a short sample size a player's true talent can be obscured.  For example, Jared Goff can look like a superstar over a two year span when he's on his rookie deal and has a super team surrounding him.  However, once he got paid and his supporting cast became less talented (as well as McVay no longer being able to tell him where to throw) he stopped looking like a star and more like the below average QB he really was.  Similarly, Josh Allen looked to have mediocre passing numbers when he had a lousy o-line and below average WRs.  However, once he got an elite #1 WR like Stefon Diggs and an improved o-line, he suddenly starts putting up MVP passing numbers.  Josh Allen didn't become an MVP caliber QB overnight.  He always had that talent.  He just finally got adequate support last year which allowed his talent fully shine.

I don't think Herbert is as bad as Goff.  There is some talent there.  But he is not as good as his first 20 games suggest.  I simply don't see that level of superstar when I watch him play.  We'll see if he keeps it up but I'm betting on a huge regression coming.  

Just admit you don't watch Herbert NFL film. His talent pops off the screen as much as any qb you will ever watch and is as evident as it is with anyone. It is elite generational level talent that doesnt regress. Production could regress like with any player. His talent is static and it is all time talent and skill set.

 

You can pretty up your words, but anyone who claims Herbert isn't great, let alone good or have all time talent, skill set and ability that explodes on film i am 100% convinced is not actually watching film. When i watch QB film, i can explain and breakdown what my eyes see. The fact you can't, tells me that. It's ok to be wrong It's ok to admit you arent watch Herbert film. He has undeniable top 4 arm talent and makes throws and plays few can. 

No one was ever in awe of Goff or his film. Entire NFL film analysis community is in awe of Herbert's film. At some point bro, you need to get credibility back and these contrarian takes aren't the route. I am convinced you will always be wrong and convinced you will always talk your way out of admitting you are wrong. 

I guess every amazing elite talent will always have that 1 guy doubting them.

[SBLIII]

19 hours ago, The BILLievers said:

We’ll agree to disagree to an extent. Even Allen said in an interview with Rich Eisen two days ago that he really started feeling confident in his play / new mechanics prior to the 2020 season (where he took off).

I do think the bills offensive talent was garbage when he got drafted and he would’ve been better on a different team, but I don’t agree that a 2018/19 Josh Allen on the chiefs could’ve been Mahomes.

regardless, he’s now in tier 1 of QBs and shouldn’t be going anywhere anytime soon

He is just making excuses for his evalution in the draft process. The reality is Allen made unprecedented improvements.

[Xenos]

On 10/14/2021 at 10:32 PM, VanS said:

Josh Allen by a mile. 

I don't even think Herbert is actually good.  This hot start to his career is fugazi in my eyes.  We'll see if he proves me wrong but I just don't buy it.  I can see a Jared Goff/Carson Wentz type fall coming. 

Emotions after reading this:

 

 

 

[Xenos]

On 10/15/2021 at 6:43 AM, VanS said:

Why do some of ya'll have a problem with letting things play themselves out?  Ya'll wanna crown guys or bury them after one to two years.  20 games no matter how good don't make a career.  Carson Wentz looked like he was headed for the Hall of Fame in 2017.  Jared Goff fooled many into thinking he was elite in 2017-2018.  

If Herbert is as great as you think he is then he will keep this up and make me look stupid every year.  Why are you so scared of simply letting things play themselves out?  I remember last year when many  doubted if Josh Allen was as good as the numbers he was putting up.  I simply said bet against Josh Allen at your own risk because I knew he would only make them look even more foolish.

Only those who don't have confidence in their position require others to immediately agree with them.  

 

I’m still waiting on Joshua Dobbs to ascend. Maybe one day he’ll catch up to Herbert.