Josh Allen or Justin Herbert

[Xenos]

9 minutes ago, VanS said:

2020 wasn't considered a great QB class either.  It's why a guy who was projected to be an undrafted free agent the year before went #1 overall and a guy recovering from hip surgery went ahead of Herbert. 

There's nothing about Herbert that couldn't have been said for Goff.  That's the point. 

Using that logic, Allen is worse than Herbert because he was drafted 7th overall and Lamar Jackson was 32nd. You really do have twisted logic.

[VanS]

20 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Allen got better not just because he had better talent around him, but because he also had the work ethic to improve. Even he knew he was raw and needed help from others to be better.

So was Josh Allen the only QB to work on his game in the 2020 off-season?

I am not denying he worked on his game.  Every athlete does that.  The point is he went from being considered a below average QB that many thought was holding back the Bills to the runner-up for MVP in one off-season.  Nobody makes that sort of improvement.   The reality is he was a lot better than what people gave him credit for in 2018 and 2019.  Thus the 2020 breakthrough wasn't because he made unprecedented improvements but rather his circumstances improved (i.e. more talent around him) which allowed the talent he always had to finally shine through.

The people who keep talking about how much he improved are simply trying to make excuses for why they were wrong about him from the start.

[biggie.]

11 minutes ago, VanS said:

https://www.espn.com/blog/los-angeles-rams/post/_/id/39179/jared-goff-creeping-into-mvp-discussion

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/21/nfl-rams-jared-goff-todd-gurley-mvp-odds/

https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2018/9/28/17913110/la-rams-qb-jared-goff-2018-mvp

https://lasportshub.com/2018/10/03/los-angeles-rams-jared-goff-mvp-three/

Why would you say something that a simple Google search could disprove?

From pretty much the first month of the 2018 season Jared Goff was considered a leading MVP candidate with most of the media considering him among the best QBs in the game.  The idea he was only considered a fringe top 10 QB and product of McVay is a total lie.   Only outliers like myself were making the argument he was a product of McVay.  Most of the media was sucking him off like they're doing now with Herbert.

The only difference between the two is Goff made a bad impression as a rookie so he had to do more to get people on his side.  That's why the reaction of his success in 2017 was lukewarm.   But after 2018 started and the Rams were demolishing everyone, the media as well as most posters on this site were on his bandwagon.  It wasn't just overzealous Rams fans.  It was practically everyone.  The fact you are now denying this just shows how people will rewrite the past to fit into their present views rather than simply admitting they were wrong. 

Lol ESPN and LA media.

[VanS]

46 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Still good and better than your ineptitude. Herbert had a bad day. Oh well. Would you like me to show you all of Josh Allen’s bad days? I mean it’s as recent as the first game of the season against the Steelers.

Who said anything about Herbert?  I was talking about Goff in that post.  In 2018 I said he was not good and a product of McVay.  That take was met with similar resistance to my current take on Herbert.  I wanted you to tell me how my 2018 Jared Goff take has aged?  

The fact you are this defensive about Herbert's poor performance today tells me you invest too much into the game to game variability of sports.  I made my post regarding Herbert not being good after his great game against the Browns.  One thing I don't do is wait for a player to have a bad game to say something negative.  I'd rather predict it beforehand and let stuff like this happen. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by VanS

[biggie.]

49 minutes ago, VanS said:

Who said anything about Herbert?  I was talking about Goff in that post.  In 2018 I said he was not good and a product of McVay.  That take was met with similar resistance to my current take on Herbert.  I wanted you to tell me how my 2018 Jared Goff take has aged?  

The fact you are this defensive about Herbert's poor performance tells me invest too much into the game to game variability of sports.  I made my post regarding Herbert not being good after his great game against the Browns.  One thing I don't do is wait for a player to have a bad game to say something negative.  I'd rather predict ot beforehand and let stuff like this happen. 

Goff had a prodigy head coach that started the "young offensive mind" movement for head coaches.

Herbert had a lame duck head coach that ended up getting fired and his replacement is a defensive coordinator.

Edited October 17, 2021 by biggie.

[Xenos]

3 minutes ago, VanS said:

Who said anything about Herbert?  I was talking about Goff in that post.  In 2018 I said he was not good and a product of McVay.  That take was met with similar resistance to my current take on Herbert.  I wanted you to tell me how my 2018 Jared Goff take has aged?  

The fact you are this defensive about Herbert's poor performance tells me invest too much into the game to game variability of sports.  I made my post regarding Herbert not being good after his great game against the Browns.  One thing I don't do is wait for a player to have a bad game to say something negative.  I'd rather predict ot beforehand and let stuff like this happen. 

My post with the gifs that you quoted for whatever reason was talking about Herbert. I didn’t mention anything about Goff. Reading comprehension is your friend Vans.

[VanS]

15 minutes ago, biggie. said:

Except Herbert looked good right out of the gate and is a much bigger component to LAC that Goff ever was for LAR.

True.  First impressions matter.  Herbert made a good first impression to the masses hence why so many are on his bandwagon already.  Goff made a terrible first impression.  Which is why it took him a lot longer to get media love.

Those who are a wise don't fall for first impressions.   They look at the long term.  I didn't fall for Baker Mayfield's stellar first impression in 2018.  Neither did I start to question Lamar or Josh for their slow starts.  I trusted my evaluation over their entire careers up to that most.  It's why my takes on Mayfield, Lamar, and Josh Allen takes have matured so well.  I didn't fall for the first impression. 

[Xenos]

11 minutes ago, VanS said:

So was Josh Allen the only QB to work on his game in the 2020 off-season?

I am not denying he worked on his game.  Every athlete does that.  The point is he went from being considered a below average QB that many thought was holding back the Bills to the runner-up for MVP in one off-season.  Nobody makes that sort of improvement.   The reality is he was a lot better than what people gave him credit for in 2018 and 2019.  Thus the 2020 breakthrough wasn't because he made unprecedented improvements but rather his circumstances improved (i.e. more talent around him) which allowed the talent he always had to finally shine through.

The people who keep talking about how much he improved are simply trying to make excuses for why they were wrong about him from the start.

Nobody makes that type of improvement? Your lack of faith in Josh Allen is concerning lol. But honestly, the third year is when most QBs make their jump especially if they’re in the same offensive scheme.

[VanS]

19 minutes ago, Xenos said:

You obviously forgot how amazing Wentz was before his injury against the Rams. 

No I remember.  I too thought he was headed for the Hall of Fame.  However, I had to accept that take was wrong given how unimpressive he has been ever since.  I can't blame all of his ineffectiveness on that injury.  For one it was not the worst knee injury we've ever seen.  As far as I can tell there is nothing physically limiting Wentz.   His subpar play can only be explained by him not being mentally strong enough to overcome adversity.  If you can't overcome adversity then you were never a great player to begin with. 

[VanS]

21 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Using that logic, Allen is worse than Herbert because he was drafted 7th overall and Lamar Jackson was 32nd. You really do have twisted logic.

The point there was about how people were perceived.   The post I was responding to was trying to make the argument nobody thought of Goff like they did Herbert.  I was simply proving that to be false.  I was not arguing Goff was better than Herbert because he was drafted earlier.

 

[Xenos]

5 minutes ago, VanS said:

No I remember.  I too thought he was headed for the Hall of Fame.  However, I had to accept that take was wrong given how unimpressive he has been ever since.  I can't blame all of his ineffectiveness on that injury.  For one it was not the worst knee injury we've ever seen.  As far as I can tell there is nothing physically limiting Wentz.   His subpar play can only be explained by him not being mentally strong enough to overcome adversity.  If you can't overcome adversity then you were never a great player to begin with. 

Yeah the mental part is important and Wentz seemed to have lost it every year he was there. He seemed to be doing better with the Colts at least.

[VanS]

18 minutes ago, biggie. said:

Lol ESPN and LA media.

So the world wide leader in sports and his local media were covering it.  What's weird about that?  I don't see the Tennessee media writing about Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers unless the Titans are about to play them.

Also one of those articles is citing how Las Vegas had Goff with the 3rd best odds for MVP in 2018 after Brees and Mahomes.

I can't believe I actually have to defend the notion Jared Goff was considered an elite MVP caliber QB in 2018.  It was only 3 years ago folks.  The amount of deception and revisionist history going on in this thread is mind-boggling.

Edited October 17, 2021 by VanS

[VanS]

15 minutes ago, biggie. said:

Goff had a prodigy head coach that started the "young offensive mind" movement for head coaches.

Herbert had a lame duck head coach that ended up getting fired and his replacement as a defensive coordinator.

Cool.  What does that have to do with me being a lone voice in 2018 saying Goff wasn't good despite him being considered a leading MVP candidate that year?

You guys are deceptively trying to turn this debate into Goff vs Herbert debate.  I said off the jump I consider Herbert to be better.  I am only bringing up Goff to show that a mediocre player can have short term success that gives most the illusion he's great.  That is all.

My contention is Herbert is not as good as his current success implies.  I am predicting a regression.  Similar to how I predicted Goff would regress in 2018 during the height of his success.

[biggie.]

18 minutes ago, VanS said:

Cool.  What does that have to do with me being a lone voice in 2018 saying Goff wasn't good despite him being considered a leading MVP candidate that year?

You guys are deceptively trying to turn this debate into Goff vs Herbert debate.  I said off the jump I consider Herbert to be better.  I am only bringing up Goff to show that a mediocre player can have short term success that gives most the illusion he's great.  That is all.

My contention is Herbert is not as good as his current success implies.  I am predicting a regression.  Similar to how I predicted Goff would regress in 2018 during the height of his success.

Idk about everyone else, but there was never a time where I personally thought Goff was anything more than a fringe top 10 QB. Always saw him as an average QB that looked horrible in his rookie year because his coach at the time was as effective as a traffic cone. Once he got a coach that knew what he was doing and willing to work with him, Goff turned into a serviceable starter.

Comparing Herbert to Goff is laughable.

Edited October 17, 2021 by biggie.

[VanS]

20 minutes ago, Xenos said:

My post with the gifs that you quoted for whatever reason was talking about Herbert. I didn’t mention anything about Goff. Reading comprehension is your friend Vans.

So lemme get this straight.  You question my reading comprehension by not reading the actual post you responded to?

You posted those gifs trying to mock my take that I don't think Justin Herbert is even good.  I responded by saying folks said the same thing to me in 2018 about my Goff not being good take.  I then asked you how that take is doing today in 2021.  You responded with a defensive post about Herbert's poor play today and tried to bring Josh Allen into this. 

Looks to me like you are the one with issues when it comes to reading comprehension cause I don't know how me asking you about how my 2018 take on Jared Goff not being good is doing today would trigger you to bring up Herbert's poor performance against the Ravens.