Josh Allen or Justin Herbert

[Bearerofnews]

39 minutes ago, VanS said:

https://www.espn.com/blog/los-angeles-rams/post/_/id/39179/jared-goff-creeping-into-mvp-discussion

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/21/nfl-rams-jared-goff-todd-gurley-mvp-odds/

https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2018/9/28/17913110/la-rams-qb-jared-goff-2018-mvp

https://lasportshub.com/2018/10/03/los-angeles-rams-jared-goff-mvp-three/

Why would you say something that a simple Google search could disprove?

From pretty much the first month of the 2018 season Jared Goff was considered a leading MVP candidate with most of the media considering him among the best QBs in the game.  The idea he was only considered a fringe top 10 QB and product of McVay is a total lie.   Only outliers like myself were making the argument he was a product of McVay.  Most of the media was sucking him off like they're doing now with Herbert.

The only difference between the two is Goff made a bad impression as a rookie so he had to do more to get people on his side.  That's why the reaction of his success in 2017 was lukewarm.   But after 2018 started and the Rams were demolishing everyone, the media as well as most posters on this site were on his bandwagon.  It wasn't just overzealous Rams fans.  It was practically everyone.  The fact you are now denying this just shows how people will rewrite the past to fit into their present views rather than simply admitting they were wrong. 

Being in MVP convo based on play for a single season isn't anyone hyping up Goff. No one was on Goff bandwagon,even in your articles. It was based on his single season and the production. That is all anyone was raving about. Most everyone accredited to Mcvay and that system.

 

I promise you NO ONE was calling Goff generational like HOF qbs are calling Herbert. I promise SB winning coaches weren't saying they would take Goff over any player to start a franchise. I promise you film analyst werent raving and drooling over Goff film every week like with Herbert. I promise you NO ONE was claiming Goff was a top 5 or top 3 QB. No one was talking about Goff's skill set, talent and ability being elite and all time good, like with Herbert.

 

In fact i remember everyone always putting Wentz and Dak over Goff and always thinking Goff was underrated on this site and with the public perception of him. 

The fact that you think him and Herbert are anything alike as QBs or their perception nationally is anything alike proves you don't understand the QB position at all and how to assess QB film.

You are also completely out of touch with reality if you think people were high on Goff. His isolated play for 2018 warranted some MVP talk. Most had Gurley as the reason for their success in 2018.

Sorry you are once again, completely off base. 

[Bearerofnews]

58 minutes ago, VanS said:

2020 wasn't considered a great QB class either.  It's why a guy who was projected to be an undrafted free agent the year before went #1 overall and a guy recovering from hip surgery went ahead of Herbert. 

There's nothing about Herbert that couldn't have been said for Goff.  That's the point. 

Other than having all time elite tools and generational talent. 

Herbert is literally a more polished and consistently accurate Josh Allen, with less physical running ability.

[VanS]

23 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Nobody makes that type of improvement? Your lack of faith in Josh Allen is concerning lol. But honestly, the third year is when most QBs make their jump especially if they’re in the same offensive scheme.

I actually predicted Allen could be MVP in 2020 BEFORE the season.  The point there was about how its impossible for someone to actually be below average one season and MVP caliber the next.  Obviously the guy had to have been really good beforehand or the MVP season is a fluke and he'll regress afterwards.  

Short term success or failure is not indicative of what the long term future holds.  Josh Allen wasn't bad his first two years and suddenly became good the last two.  Just as Jared Goff wasn't good in 2017 and 2018 then suddenly became bad.  You guys simply made the mistake of falling for short term trends rather than being able to evaluate talent properly to predict long term consequences. 

When I say Justin Herbert isn't good I am looking at the long term outlook not his current short term results.  Just as I was looking at Goff's long term outlook when I said he wasn't good in 2018. 

[VanS]

12 minutes ago, biggie. said:

Idk about everyone else, but there was never a time where I personally thought Goff was anything more than a fringe top 10 QB.

Comparing Herbert to Goff is laughable.

Good for you.  Looks like you are smarter than most.  However, if you were paying attention during 2018 you would know your position was an outlier.  Most were crowning Goff as an elite QB and leading MVP candidate. 

[Bearerofnews]

2 hours ago, VanS said:

I actually predicted Allen could be MVP in 2020 BEFORE the season.  The point there was about how its impossible for someone to actually be below average one season and MVP caliber the next.  Obviously the guy had to have been really good beforehand or the MVP season is a fluke and he'll regress afterwards.  

Short term success or failure is not indicative of what the long term future holds.  Josh Allen wasn't bad his first two years and suddenly became good the last two.  Just as Jared Goff wasn't good in 2017 and 2018 then suddenly became bad.  You guys simply made the mistake of falling for short term trends rather than being able to evaluate talent properly to predict long term consequences. 

When I say Justin Herbert isn't good I am looking at the long term outlook not his current short term results.  Just as I was looking at Goff's long term outlook when I said he wasn't good in 2018. 

No Allen was bad his first year, he was very erratic passer, had inconsistent accuracy, struggled reading defenses and relied on his athleticism over throwing ability. He gradually improved in 2019 and made the leap in 2019. In fact early in this season began regression in his accuracy again and reading defenses.

Herbert was basically a more polished Allen. Both 6'6, 240, big arms, athletic, mobility. Allen is a more physical runner. Herbert a more polished passer. Herbert isn't a product of a Goff. He played at his level with 2 different OC's, 2 different systems, 2 different HCs. Something Allen hasn't done.

 

You can't even breakdown why Herbert "isnt good" which is absurd. His ceiling is the best QB in the league.

When your reasoning is a hunch, then you have no real reason. You are just a bad QB contrarian who has bad takes on QB play and ability and thinks when he hits one time, that he knows how to breakdown the QB position.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Bearerofnews

[Bearerofnews]

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

Good for you.  Looks like you are smarter than most.  However, if you were paying attention during 2018 you would know your position was an outlier.  Most were crowning Goff as an elite QB and leading MVP candidate. 

No one had Goff top 10. People considering him in the MVP talk based off an isolated season, isn't anyone calling him top 10. Goff was very limited. Herbert literally has no limitations. His limitations are experience. Where he will have a bad game occasionally,but then again what QB doesn't.

[VanS]

9 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Being in MVP convo based on play for a single season isn't anyone hyping up Goff. No one was on Goff bandwagon,even in your articles. It was based on his single season and the production. That is all anyone was raving about. Most everyone accredited to Mcvay and that system.

 

I promise you NO ONE was calling Goff generational like HOF qbs are calling Herbert. I promise SB winning coaches weren't saying they would take Goff over any player to start a franchise. I promise you film analyst werent raving and drooling over Goff film every week like with Herbert. I promise you NO ONE was claiming Goff was a top 5 or top 3 QB. No one was talking about Goff's skill set, talent and ability being elite and all time good, like with Herbert.

 

In fact i remember everyone always putting Wentz and Dak over Goff and always thinking Goff was underrated on this site and with the public perception of him. 

The fact that you think him and Herbert are anything alike as QBs or their perception nationally is anything alike proves you don't understand the QB position at all and how to assess QB film.

You are also completely out of touch with reality if you think people were high on Goff. His isolated play for 2018 warranted some MVP talk. Most had Gurley as the reason for their success in 2018.

Sorry you are once again, completely off base. 

Once again you guys are trying to turn this into a Goff versus Herbert debate.  Did I not say myself from the jump I consider Herbert to be better?

I only brought up Goff to show how quickly a regression can come.  Even if nobody thought Goff was a generational QB, people thought he was at the very least a good player.  How many people feel that way about him now?  That's my point here buddy.  

I'm not trying to compare Goff and Herbert.  I'm only trying to tell you that a player can look a lot better than they really during a short term sample size that can obscure how good they really are over the long term.  Yes Herbert's highs are higher than Goff right now.  And no I don't expect his lows to be as bad as Goff's will be.  However, I am projecting a pretty massive regression.   Similar to the regression we've seen from Goff.  Does that make Herbert the same as Goff?  No.  He started off higher so he won't fall off quite as low.  But there will be a fall-off coming. 

Let's just put it this way.  In a few years it'll be considered laughable that people were once comparing Justin Herbert to Josh Allen.  Just as it's laughable today for anyone to compare Baker Mayfield to Josh Allen. 

[biggie.]

33 minutes ago, VanS said:

So the world wide leader in sports and his local media were covering it.  What's weird about that?  I don't see the Tennessee media writing about Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers unless the Titans are about to play them.

Also one of those articles is citing how Las Vegas had Goff with the 3rd best odds for MVP in 2018 after Brees and Mahomes.

I can't believe I actually have to defend the notion Jared Goff was considered an elite MVP caliber QB in 2018.  It was only 3 years ago folks.  The amount of deception and revisionist history going on in this thread is mind-boggling.

ESPN hires a bunch of morons that don't know what they're talking about and of course local media is going to hype the QB when things are going good.

[Bearerofnews]

32 minutes ago, VanS said:

So the world wide leader in sports and his local media were covering it.  What's weird about that?  I don't see the Tennessee media writing about Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers unless the Titans are about to play them.

Also one of those articles is citing how Las Vegas had Goff with the 3rd best odds for MVP in 2018 after Brees and Mahomes.

I can't believe I actually have to defend the notion Jared Goff was considered an elite MVP caliber QB in 2018.  It was only 3 years ago folks.  The amount of deception and revisionist history going on in this thread is mind-boggling.

I promise you no one was talking about Goff like they are Herbert. Not even the most fanatical Rams fan. There was always hesitation with Goff. There was always understanding he was a limited talent that was a byproduct of a great system and coach. The talk was he was MVP worthy in 2018 based on an isolated season. But the overall perception of him was fringe top 10.

Also same with Baker. No one was ever talking about Baker like Herbo, not close. Because Goff and Baker on a vacuum are nothing remotely like Herbo.

[Bearerofnews]

2 minutes ago, VanS said:

Once again you guys are trying to turn this into a Goff versus Herbert debate.  Did I not say myself from the jump I consider Herbert to be better?

I only brought up Goff to show how quickly a regression can come.  Even if nobody thought Goff was a generational QB, people thought he was at the very least a good player.  How many people feel that way about him now?  That's my point here buddy.  

I'm not trying to compare Goff and Herbert.  I'm only trying to tell you that a player can look a lot better than they really during a short term sample size that can obscure how good they really are over the long term.  Yes Herbert's highs are higher than Goff right now.  And no I don't expect his lows to be as bad as Goff's will be.  However, I am projecting a pretty massive regression.   Similar to the regression we've seen from Goff.  Does that make Herbert the same as Goff?  No.  He started off higher so he won't fall off quite as low.  But there will be a fall-off coming. 

Let's just put it this way.  In a few years it'll be considered laughable that people were once comparing Justin Herbert to Josh Allen.  Just as it's laughable today for anyone to compare Baker Mayfield to Josh Allen. 

I guarantee you this will age badly and I will be here to remind you. Herbert in short order will be a consensus top 3 if not 1. I just hope you own it and don't drag it out on a 5 year plan or 10 year plan.

[VanS]

28 minutes ago, biggie. said:

ESPN hires a bunch of morons that don't know what they're talking about and of course local media is going to hype the QB when things are going good.

I guess Vegas also likes to lose money ehh?  Guess they make fringe QBs leading MVP candidates during the middle of the season for no reason right? 

[biggie.]

Just now, VanS said:

I guess Vegas also likes to lose money ehh?  Guess they make fringe QBs leading MVP candidates during the middle of the season for no reason right? 

Most of them probably don't know even know what a Cover 2 defense is.

[VanS]

30 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

I promise you no one was talking about Goff like they are Herbert. Not even the most fanatical Rams fan. There was always hesitation with Goff. There was always understanding he was a limited talent that was a byproduct of a great system and coach. The talk was he was MVP worthy in 2018 based on an isolated season. But the overall perception of him was fringe top 10.

Also same with Baker. No one was ever talking about Baker like Herbo, not close. Because Goff and Baker on a vacuum are nothing remotely like Herbo.

Cool.  Now tell me how many people in 2021 think of Goff or Mayfield like they did in 2018?

You guys keep skirting around my argument by trying to make this into a Goff/Mayfield vs Herbert debate.  I have already conceded he's better than those guys.  I am simply telling you that in a few years nobody will be talking about him the way they are right now.  Just as nobody is talking about Goff or Mayfield the way they were in 2018.

 

[VanS]

32 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

I guarantee you this will age badly and I will be here to remind you. Herbert in short order will be a consensus top 3 if not 1. I just hope you own it and don't drag it out on a 5 year plan or 10 year plan.

Cool.  I look forward to being reminded of it just as I am reminded of my Josh Dobbs take to this day.  If you notice I never complain about it.   It's just unusual that ya'll only like to remind me of when I miss on a player.  I don't see daily reminders of my bold takes on Kamara, Josh Allen, Lamar, and Goff among others.  

[The BILLievers]

Bump. It’s not close imo