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Game #5 - Sun, Oct 10 vs Buffalo


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20 hours ago, Habbsawce said:

Man, I thought Bob Sutton days were rough. But it just never changes. What in the actual **** is going on, how can they have such good players and just play so poorly.

And we were very specific about getting Spags to correct defensive deficiencies.

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4 hours ago, kingseanjohn said:

And here we are... I was referring to our past success and championship caliber teams. I should have been more clear.

Going back to 2019, instead of now, really only adds Fisher and Colquitt to that list. 17 of the 22 starting spots in 2019 were manned by different players than in 2016. This claim has always been incorrect.

EDIT: People just don't actually remember anymore what the Dorsey teams looked like. They were Alex Smith throwing to Maclin and Conley, handing off to West and Ware, being blocked for by Morse and Fulton and Allen. The defense was Poe and Bailey and Howard clearing space for Houston, Hali, Ford, and Johnson, with Berry, Parker, Nelson, and Peters in coverage. None of these guys lasted past year two with Veach. 

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38 minutes ago, Soggust said:

And we will be competitive, if not favored, in almost every game.

And if we play like we did yesterday we can count on losing at least a few.  The bottom line is, our defense cannot afford our offense to be anything less than amazing.  We’re not getting pressure, we’re getting even less turnovers, our tackling is an exercise in futility and apparently Thorny slept with Spags wife or something.

 If you told me KC would go 50/50 the rest of the way out, considering how they’ve played this far (remember their two wins weren’t impressive)…I can’t say I’d be shocked.  Could they win out maybe, but I think I’d almost lean toward 50/50 at this point as painful as it is to say.

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6 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Going back to 2019, instead of now, really only adds Fisher and Colquitt to that list. 17 of the 22 starting spots in 2019 were manned by different players than in 2016. This claim has always been incorrect.

Dorsey ran the 2017 draft but he did not get into the season. So you have to credit him Mahomes -- and I don't care how much PR the Chiefs put out to hype up their hiring of Veach. Dorsey was GM. He made the trade and the selection.

The list is obviously excluding guys that Dorsey brought in who played key roles in 2019 such as Sorensen, Schwartz, Kpassagnon, and Sherman. Plus numerous guys who are still playing elsewhere who helped us in 2018 such as Ford, Conley, Nelson, Hunt, Murray.

Point is, the team is still relying almost solely on the players Dorsey brought in -- Mahomes, Hill, Kelce, Jones --  and that isn't good when it's been 4 years since his last draft. Absolutely no one else is irreplaceable on the team except maybe Mathieu.

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8 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

This continues to be a lie. 5 players remain from Dorsey's drafts. One is LDT. One is Demarcus Robinson. Jones, Hill, and Kelce are what remain of the "team Dorsey built." 

You do understand how bad this team is without Hill, Kelce, and Jones.  That saying still remains because really the only homegrown guys,  are from Dorsey.    Veach’s biggest acquisitions were guys paid very well to be come here.  


There were absolutely reasons to draft OT, OL, WR, and even TE in years past.. but that’s getting into my main criticism of Veach.. in that it’s not a problem until it’s a HUGE problem.         I don’t really have an issue with Veach’s drafting ability,   It’s solid.      He just hasn’t allowed himself to have enough picks to build something.    And most of the early picks,  haven’t really panned out.      
 
 

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19 minutes ago, RedGold said:

You do understand how bad this team is without Hill, Kelce, and Jones.  That saying still remains because really the only homegrown guys,  are from Dorsey.    Veach’s biggest acquisitions were guys paid very well to be come here.  


There were absolutely reasons to draft OT, OL, WR, and even TE in years past.. but that’s getting into my main criticism of Veach.. in that it’s not a problem until it’s a HUGE problem.         I don’t really have an issue with Veach’s drafting ability,   It’s solid.      He just hasn’t allowed himself to have enough picks to build something.    And most of the early picks,  haven’t really panned out.      
 
 

This is just insane willful ignorance at this point. The majority of this roster is now players drafted by Veach. This was already true last year, as well. Yeah, the team is worse without Hill, Kelce, and Jones. It's also worse without Sneed, Ward, Nnadi, Danna, Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Humphrey, Smith, Niang, Hardman, CEH, Williams, Butker, Pringle, etc. Like, the hoops people are jumping through to try and say 3 guys > 40+ from a roster building perspective is absurd. Especially when half the complaints in the offseason was that the roster is too top heavy.

Again, you guys need to actually look at the roster we had before Dorsey left. There is nothing left from that. And that's been true for the bulk of the last two years. The roster underwent DRAMATIC turnover after the 2018 season. They dismantled that terrible defense. The entire superbowl team's defense was built by Veach. The entire current OL was built by Veach. Yes, a few stars remain from Dorsey's drafts. But saying Veach is still living off of Dorsey's roster, when basically 3 stars remain, is like saying Dorsey survived off of Scott Pioli's drafts, because we still had Poe, Houston, Hudson, Charles, and Berry. Why aren't we pining for the good old days of Scott Pioli drafts? Look at all those star players! Like, of course some stars are going to hang around. You don't purge an entire roster unless it's completely absent of talent. But we just went 14-2 last year with a roster of like 90% Veach acquisitions. It is absolute madness to say that was a Dorsey roster. The idolization of him is absolute non-sense.

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4 hours ago, kingseanjohn said:

Dorsey ran the 2017 draft but he did not get into the season. So you have to credit him Mahomes -- and I don't care how much PR the Chiefs put out to hype up their hiring of Veach. Dorsey was GM. He made the trade and the selection.

The list is obviously excluding guys that Dorsey brought in who played key roles in 2019 such as Sorensen, Schwartz, Kpassagnon, and Sherman. Plus numerous guys who are still playing elsewhere who helped us in 2018 such as Ford, Conley, Nelson, Hunt, Murray.

Point is, the team is still relying almost solely on the players Dorsey brought in -- Mahomes, Hill, Kelce, Jones --  and that isn't good when it's been 4 years since his last draft. Absolutely no one else is irreplaceable on the team except maybe Mathieu.

You realize it takes time to reach that point, right? Was Hill irreplaceable as a rookie? How elite was Jones in year two when he was still splitting time with Rakeem Nunez-Roches? Kelce's first 1000 yard season was in what, year 4?

Our last 3 drafts have been incredibly strong. I've posted 3rd party sources to state as such. But aside from the 2018 draft, which was obviously trash (though hindered by the investment in the 2017 draft), and the 2017 draft, which no one who loves Dorsey wants to give Veach any credit for despite literally everything the organization says, those drafts are not matured yet. The development is not done with Hardman, or Thornhill, or Fenton, or Gay, or Danna, or Niang, or Sneed, or CEH, or obviously anyone from this current draft. Was Travis Kelce an irreplaceable all-pro in his second season? No. So why are we demanding that CEH or Willie Gay already be that? It took Jamaal Charles 3 years to solidify getting the starting job over the corpse of Larry Johnson, and yet people already want to call CEH a bust. Y'all are asking why we don't have like 5 all-pros between our rookies and sophomores, and it just doesn't freaking work that way. Everyone just wants to pine after Dorsey for some baffling reason.

We've had an arguably top 5 draft 3 straight years with reduced draft capital, we've made 3 straight championship games, 2 straight superbowls, we still have one of the most talented rosters in football, and 5 weeks of struggles and a 2-3 record and everyone already wants to fire the GM. It's unbelievable.

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1 hour ago, Jakuvious said:

This is just insane willful ignorance at this point. The majority of this roster is now players drafted by Veach. This was already true last year, as well. Yeah, the team is worse without Hill, Kelce, and Jones. It's also worse without Sneed, Ward, Nnadi, Danna, Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Humphrey, Smith, Niang, Hardman, CEH, Williams, Butker, Pringle, etc. Like, the hoops people are jumping through to try and say 3 guys > 40+ from a roster building perspective is absurd. Especially when half the complaints in the offseason was that the roster is too top heavy.

Again, you guys need to actually look at the roster we had before Dorsey left. There is nothing left from that. And that's been true for the bulk of the last two years. The roster underwent DRAMATIC turnover after the 2018 season. They dismantled that terrible defense. The entire superbowl team's defense was built by Veach. The entire current OL was built by Veach. Yes, a few stars remain from Dorsey's drafts. But saying Veach is still living off of Dorsey's roster, when basically 3 stars remain, is like saying Dorsey survived off of Scott Pioli's drafts, because we still had Poe, Houston, Hudson, Charles, and Berry. Why aren't we pining for the good old days of Scott Pioli drafts? Look at all those star players! Like, of course some stars are going to hang around. You don't purge an entire roster unless it's completely absent of talent. But we just went 14-2 last year with a roster of like 90% Veach acquisitions. It is absolute madness to say that was a Dorsey roster. The idolization of him is absolute non-sense.

 

That wasn't sticking up for Dorsey,  as much as the love fest for Veach is shocking.    I totally get why Dorsey needed to go,  but the people sticking their neck out for Veach are also pretty ignorant.      He's been the GM for 4 years,   of course 90% of the roster is going to be his,  NFL rosters naturally turn over so quickly for that not to be the case.     What do we really have to show for those 4 years?       

I come across as disliking Veach more than I do,  because everyone acts like he is amazing.    We literally have 3 transcending players on offense and an amazing HC.     We are going to be good,  you would have to be another level of bad for us to not have a winning record.    He has really failed at really added more to that,      that much really can't be disputed.    Right now,  his first 2 drafts are really killing what "should" be the ascending players on this roster.       I'm not looking at the past 2 drafts,  as it's really too early to make a judgement on those (though they are looking more promising).     I really have no issues with Veach's drafts,   he's a solid drafter in all reality.         

2018 -   1st:  No pick  (understandable)
              2nd:  Breeland Speaks (trade up)
              3rd:  Derrick Nnadi
               3rd:  Dorian O'Daniel
2019 - 2nd:  Mecole Hardman (trade up)
             2nd: Juan Thornhill
             3rd:  Khalen Saunders]

He has made 1 first round selection since he's been GM,    that is a problem.   He has traded up to make his first selection 2 out of the 4 years.    When you trade up and those players don't work out,   it looks worse.      He's ultra aggressive in his moves and I think that has backfired in the total roster construction of this team.

I was totally against the Frank Clark trade,   and took some flack for it.   I was also against the Orlando Brown trade, for a lot of the same reasons.      Yes,   the OL was a problem.   Yes, he fixed it.    But at what cost?      and moreso,    how did we get into the position the OL was such an issue?!    

I got laughed at in Gen for saying Baltimore made the smarter move.    Meanwhile they really haven't lost much by picking up Villanueva and have a promising edge rusher.      

     

Ever since we signed Mahomes deal,   we have been operating that we have to win now.    I have never really understood it,   we are going to be good.    Why are we so focused on fixing year 1 issues,   it's just causing more issues down the road.     And right now,   we are sitting in the mess that was caused from aggressive moves, 2/3 years ago,   that didn't pan out.    


 

 

 

  

Edited by RedGold
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Well, we're not going to win the SB. We will improve though, and we will win the division and win at least a game in the playoffs. The defense has to, and will, get better. It can't get any worse...

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On 10/11/2021 at 6:12 AM, Habbsawce said:

Honestly don't even know where to start with how bad the defense is playing. Obviously the turnovers are killing the team, but how can anyone have any confidence in the defense.

 

Man, I thought Bob Sutton days were rough. But it just never changes. What in the actual **** is going on, how can they have such good players and just play so poorly.

I'm not sure the players are as good as some think. People in this forum overrate members of the DL and the LB corps. Only Jones is worth a damn in both those areas.

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2 minutes ago, RedGold said:

That wasn't sticking up for Dorsey,  as much as the love fest for Veach is shocking.    I totally get why Dorsey needed to go,  but the people sticking their neck out for Veach are also pretty ignorant.      He's been the GM for 4 years,   of course 90% of the roster is going to be his,  NFL rosters naturally turn over so quickly for that not to be the case.     What do we really have to show for those 4 years?       

I come across as disliking Veach more than I do,  because everyone acts like he is amazing.    We literally have 3 transcending players on offense and an amazing HC.     We are going to be good,  you would have to be another level of bad for us to not have a winning record.    He has really failed at really added more to that,      that much really can't be disputed.    Right now,  his first 2 drafts are really killing what "should" be the ascending players on this roster.       I'm not looking at the past 2 drafts,  as it's really too early to make a judgement on those (though they are looking more promising).     I really have no issues with Veach's drafts,   he's a solid drafter in all reality.         

2018 -   1st:  No pick  (understandable)
              2nd:  Breeland Speaks (trade up)
              3rd:  Derrick Nnadi
               3rd:  Dorian O'Daniel
2019 - 2nd:  Mecole Hardman (trade up)
             2nd: Juan Thornhill
             3rd:  Khalen Saunders]

He has made 1 first round selection since he's been GM,    that is a problem.   He has traded up to make his first selection 2 out of the 4 years.    When you trade up and those players don't work out,   it looks worse.      He's ultra aggressive in his moves and I think that has backfired in the total roster construction of this team.

I was totally against the Frank Clark trade,   and took some flack for it.   I was also against the Orlando Brown trade, for a lot of the same reasons.      Yes,   the OL was a problem.   Yes, he fixed it.    But at what cost?      and moreso,    how did we get into the position the OL was such an issue?!    

I got laughed at in Gen for saying Baltimore made the smarter move.    Meanwhile they really haven't lost much by picking up Villanueva and have a promising edge rusher.      

     

Ever since we signed Mahomes deal,   we have been operating that we have to win now.    I have never really understood it,   we are going to be good.    Why are we so focused on fixing year 1 issues,   it's just causing more issues down the road.     And right now,   we are sitting in the mess that was caused from aggressive moves, 2/3 years ago,   that didn't pan out.    

These are far more reasonable complaints than those I have been fighting against along the whole Veach winning with Dorsey's roster stuff. I can absolutely understand those that don't agree with going all in, I agree on the issue with trading 1st round picks (though Dorsey traded one of them, if we're giving him credit for the Mahomes deal), and I can agree that we've been hyper aggressive, sometimes to a fault. These are all much more reasonable points. I understand Veach's angle (maximizing on the cheap Mahomes years) but I can also understand the reservations around it. I think the whole mentality has driven both our biggest successes but also our biggest problems. I don't know that we win that 2019 superbowl without the kind of aggressive approach that brought us Clark and Mathieu that offseason. But it's also hard not to acknowledge that we'd be better off without the cap hits of Clark and Hitchens by now.

I will give him a pass on the bold, though. That bit I'll defend. Schwartz, Fisher, and Osemele having career defining injuries while LDT and Niang both opt out from an international pandemic are a somewhat unpredictable set of circumstances. We enter the superbowl with a Fisher/Remmers/Reiter/LDT/Schwartz OL like we presumably envisioned in that offseason and it doesn't feel as apocalyptic. But then suddenly you don't really know where Niang will be at in a year, LDT's commitment to football seems iffy, Fish and Schwartz may never recover, and your first back up plan in Osemele is down, and that puts more urgency on the rehaul. I still think the plan was for Niang to replace one of Fisher/Schwartz this year, and for us to retain the other while we try to add another future replacement in the draft, and plans just got accelerated aggressively. I think Brown/Thuney were responses to missing out on Williams, while Humphrey and Smith just made sense value wise at the time. But I legitimately think he tried to work ahead there, with Niang, and then luck just sped up the timeline. I was iffy on the Brown trade, but it is looking so far like not banking on Fisher was the right move. All reports are that he's struggled dramatically in Indy. I actually have more long term concerns about the Thuney contract, than the Brown trade.

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14 minutes ago, BigTrav said:

I'm not sure the players are as good as some think. People in this forum overrate members of the DL and the LB corps. Only Jones is worth a damn in both those areas.

They're not as bad as many think right now either, though. We have a lot of players on that D that look terrible this year, but were solid players for years before this one. Reed, Jones, Nnadi, Wharton, Sorensen, Thornhill, Ward, even to an extent guys like Sneed and Okafor, have probably played the worst football of their pro careers over the course of these 5 games. Guys like Okafor and Sorensen could just be declining, they're at the ages for it. But I refuse to believe that Derrick Nnadi is just suddenly magically trash. Even if Sneed is not as good as he looked last year, I don't think either that he is going to continue to allow 80% completion in his coverage. Like, there are guys we've seen play very good football that are giving me flashbacks of 2003, and even if they aren't as good as they looked in 2019 or 2020, I don't believe they will continue to play as poorly as they have this year, either. By and large, these are the same players that led a top 10 scoring D two straight years before this one. The talent is there. Unless we think Damien Wilson or Tanoh or Breeland were the glue that held it all together, which I doubt. I think Danna and Bolton are doing better than Tanoh and Wilson respectively anyway.

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16 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Bolton, Gay, Sneed, Danna, Nnadi, Fenton, and Thornhill have all been good picks on the defense. No stars there, save for potentially Sneed with time, but those are all guys that deserve substantial snaps at an NFL level. Mathieu, Ward, Wharton, and a few guys who have left by now (Wilson, Pennel) have been good free agent gets or trades or UDFAs. Admittedly, Nnadi, Sneed, and Wharton have not looked as good this year, but I don't think 5 games overrides a season or more of good play from each.

The list is shorter on offense, but there's less opportunity there when you really have little reason to invest a high pick in about half the positions on O most of the offseasons he's been here. No need to invest heavy in QB, TE, OT, or WR almost every year of Veach's tenure. We've spent 4 picks in the top 3 rounds on O in the year's Veach has been here, and I'd say payoff has been about 50/50. CEH and Hardman have been okay. Humphrey looks like a home run. Niang is TBD, but so-so thus far.

We've missed on a few high investment free agent/trade targets. Clark and Hitch are a big part of the problem right now with the roster as a whole. Reed looks to be another, albeit cheaper, of these. I'm not sold on Brown so far either. This does concern me, as a trend. But when I see people complaining about the draft results of the last 3 years (not 2018, 2018 was crap, but with a ton of asterisks on it) it just tells me people don't actually understand what they can expect from an NFL draft class. You will not get stars every year. Most draft picks, in basically ever round of every year, will suck. The fact that we've gotten multiple plus players each year means we're still drafting quite well. Token PFF disclaimer, but for reference beyond just my word:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-best-2019-nfl-draft-classes

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-most-productive-2020-rookie-draft-classes

4th overall in 2019 and 2020. And I would argue this class already looks like the best we've had under Veach.

I asked for good starters, and all i see on your list is a bunch of average at best.

Sneed is the only star, and hes sophomore slumping on this turrible defense

Like I said, his talent acquisition hasnt been great for a while now. He hasnt expanded the core of this team. Hes made terrible high priced FA moves(Mathieu being the only good one, and Veach wanted Earl Thomas), and his trades have been okay at best, At Best!
 

and no this isn't a Dorsey vs Veach debate, im looking at it squarely on Veach. Hes been here 4 years and we havent really moved the needle at all from those Dorsey years, and that is a huge problem right now. 

Edited by Chiefer
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7 hours ago, BigTrav said:

I'm not sure the players are as good as some think. People in this forum overrate members of the DL and the LB corps. Only Jones is worth a damn in both those areas.

 

I guess when I really think about it, there isn't much talent on the defensive side. The LB core, I would say is probably the single worst in the NFL, definitely the division. I mean, how many ******* times do we see RB's and QBs just jog through the A and B gaps untouched to the safety? It's unacceptable, it's like they aren't being taught, or don't understand how to fill gaps.

 

Man, I know it's probably overreaction after a loss, but it's really hard to stomach. When I'm watching, I just assume unless it's a turnover the other team will score. I'm shocked when they get a stop at this point.

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