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Should we move on?  

29 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we consciously uncouple from OBJ?

    • Yes, he’s a bum who can eat my shorts.
    • Yes, he may be great, but it isn’t working out here.
    • No, 3 years is hardly enough time to figure this out. Patience is a virtue.
      0
    • Absolutely not, my Baker -> OBJ -> Super Bowl tattoo will pay off shortly.


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2 hours ago, Empire Lies said:

Officially one of the last long post (and really post of any type) as I'm preparing to take my annual internet forum sabbatical

Sweet!  Just remember your password is 123derpderp. 
 

We’ll see ya when we see ya!!

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2 hours ago, Empire Lies said:

And with that, I take my leave. 

Long Live Kai Nacua.

------------------

My recommendation 

 

go to the change you password section.

 

close your eyes

 

start hitting keys with all of your fingers for a solid 30 seconds

open your eyes

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then logout

 

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DYle0qA.png

 

4 hours ago, Empire Lies said:

Officially one of my last long posts (and really one of the last posts of any type for me) as I'm preparing to take my annual internet forum sabbatical until hopefully the Browns are in playoffs b/c Baker's balling and the team is thriving. You derps make me sick with your non-All22 foolery.

Heading back into the ole' Haberdashery to continue the good work of converting digital film wizardry into 35mm true All22 film while I earnestly await the good king Darnold or Nacua's return.

I didn't even want to look in this thread b/c of what I knew would be terrible takes. You tv angle trusting, boxscore scouting, non-understanding of correlation versus causation, non-wordsmithians are a scourge upon the Earth. Shame! Shame! Shame!

But let's talk Odell Beckham Jr's time in Cleveland ...

-------------------------

A WRs primary duties are the following:

1.) Get Open (i.e., run the appropriate and quality route, on broken plays get open for the QB, etc)

2.) Catch the Ball 

3.) Block with Effort and Quality

4.) Give Quality and Consistent Effort even when one knows they aren't getting the ball

A WRs secondary duties are the following:

1.) Be a Quality Teammate and Locker Room Guy in the things one can control

2.) Be a Quality Person off-the-field when not at work

------

Evaluating OBJ's Quality of Work & Why Derps Have No Idea What's Going On

1.) There's an easy way to approximate to a high degree of certainty regarding the quality of OBJ's contributions in the 4 primary duties/responsibilities he has to the organization as a football player (i.e., getting open, catching the ball, blocking quality, effort quality). Unfortunately, because hardly any of you watch the All22 your takes are easily shaped by the brief moments and snapshots or occurrences you see of routes or play outcomes that the slice of the TV shows, or the announcers interpretation of things.

2.) One can also look at the statistics/analytics and compare OBJ relative to other WRs in the league to see where OBJ compares on metrics like Drop Rate or Big Moment Drop Rate.

Any quality assessor of traditional football scouting analysis and analytics knows the following are true:

1.) The vast majority of time in Cleveland OBJ's blocking is of good to great quality
2.) The vast majority of time in Cleveland OBJ's routes are of good quality and is getting open.
3.) OBJ's drop rate is better than other top WRs in the league each year he's been in Cleveland (See the next section for specifics on Drops)
4.) The vast majority of time in Cleveland OBJ's effort has been of great quality

----------

Let's talk Drops You Non-All22 Watching, Analytically Know-Nothing Charlatans:

**Drop Rate (i.e., Drops Per Target) is more meaningful than Total Drops as it controls for varying opportunities**

2019 - Notable WRs Who Dropped the Ball at a Higher Rate compared to Odell Beckham Jr. (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/receiving_advanced.htm)

1.) DK Metcalf (Drop Rate 7% in 15 Games; 7 Drops Total)

2.) Stefon Diggs (Drop Rate 6.4% in 15 Games; 6 Drops Total)

3.) Mike Evans (Drop Rate 5.9% in 13 Games; 7 Drops Total)

4.) Davante Adams (Drop Rate 5.5% in 12 Games; 7 Drops Total)

5.) Brandin Cooks (Drop Rate 5.6% in 14 Games; 6 Drops Total)

6.) Odell Beckham Jr. (Drop Rate 5.3% in 15 Games; 7 Drops Total) 

2020 - Notable WRs Who Dropped the Ball at a Higher Rate compared to Odell Beckham Jr. (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/receiving_advanced.htm

In 2020, Odell had a drop rate of 2.3 in 7 games; Total Drops 1). If he kept that pace, it would've been exceptional, BUT let's assume he would've matched his drop rate of the season prior at 5.3%; let's then look at the notable WRs in 2020 who exceeded that drop rate.

**Drop Rate (i.e., Drops Per Target) is more meaningful than Total Drops as it controls for varying opportunities**

1.) Adam Thielen (Drop Rate 6.5% in 15 Games; 7 Drops Total) 

2.) DK Metcalf (Drop Rate 6.2% in 16 Games; 8 Drops Total) 

3.) Tyler Lockett (Drop Rate 6.1% in 16 Games; 8 Drops Total) 

4.) Jarvis Landry (Drop Rate 5.9% in 15 Games; 6 Drops Total) 

5.) DJ Moore (Drop Rate 5.9% in 15 Games; 7 Drops Total) 

6.) Devante Parker (Drop Rate 5.8% in 14 Games; 6 Drops Total) 

-------

In terms of the being a quality teammate and locker room guy, OBJ has matured and by all accounts has been of good to great quality in that area. Showing some emotion on the sideline or going out after a play is not evidence of anything nefarious.

In terms of off-the-field stuff, besides the unproven rumor of "come get me" or whatever there's literally been nothing.

-------

Because no one watches the All22 no one sees that Baker misses OBJ on routine throws or when he's wide open all the time going back to the very beginning of OBJ arriving in Cleveland.

Baker and OBJ's on-field chemistry has suffered from the hip/groin surgery going into the 2020 season as well as the ACL surgery heading into 2021. They've really barely even had 1 full offseason.

The only reason why anyone talks about OBJ being the problem is b/c of the need to attribute all Baker's misses on an OBJ bad route or OBJ caused QB mind haze. OBJ has dropped balls and ran bad route no different than any of the top WRs. 

There are those that know and those that don't. Anyone watching the All22 over the years knows, Baker just misses a lot of reads and throws to OBJ and that's the main reason for their lack of connection relative to OBJ's occasional drops or occasional bad route.

The problem is that Baker is not yet the quality QB that can perform in a pressurized environment whether that be in big moments, big games, or big expectations to get big time talents the ball. He can still be ... hopefully.

Top QBs never have the "mental fog from perceived pressure to force the ball to WR X" problem. 

You put OBJ with any of the top 10 QBs, and the foolery that Browns fans entertain in terms of attributing blame to OBJ mind fog ceases to exist.

It doesn't matter that OBJ has an occasional drop no different than the top WR, keep getting him the ball. 

At this point, I hope OBJ gets to play with one of the top tier QBs. The idea that Baker can only thrive with lesser talent WRs is some of the most laughable stuff ever.

And with that, I take my leave. 

Long Live Kai Nacua.

------------------

 

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2 hours ago, malibuspeedrace said:

My recommendation 

 

go to the change you password section.

 

close your eyes

 

start hitting keys with all of your fingers for a solid 30 seconds

open your eyes

Click submit

 

 

 

then logout

 

Booo. 

 

I like empire minds posts.

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12 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Booo. 

 

I like empire minds posts.

 

2 hours ago, malibuspeedrace said:

My recommendation 

 

go to the change you password section.

 

close your eyes

 

start hitting keys with all of your fingers for a solid 30 seconds

open your eyes

Click submit

 

 

 

then logout

 

Harsh but fair? 🤔

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On 10/10/2021 at 10:54 PM, Kiwibrown said:

To me he needs to go. 

Him and Baker dont work.

It may have been an ok trade at the time, but it just doesnt work. 

This is it in a nutshell.

No sense trying to figure out why, we have had enough of a history to see that OBJ and Baker just don't work together well. Best of intentions, but just as in other areas of life - it just doesn't work out.

Time to move on.

But, here is why we probably won't... and can't.

 

Edited by brooks1957
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1 hour ago, brooks1957 said:

This is it in a nutshell.

No sense trying to figure out why, we have had enough of a history to see that OBJ and Baker just don't work together well. Best of intentions, but just as in other areas of life - it just doesn't work out.

Yeah this is where I’ve been for a while.

Not a dig at OBJ, I’m sure he’s doing his part, it just hasn’t worked really at any point over 3 seasons.

I wish it would, but here we are.

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So I’ll just put this here cuz… why not?
 

@MWil23 during his weekly flip flop on Baker (still love you bb) mentioned “how many more weapons does he need?” and honestly it got me thinking (painful experience, don’t recommend).

How many true weapons does Baker have in your opinion outside of the backs right now?

Personally I see it as such.
 

1.  DPJ.  I’ll come back to why.

 

OBJ is imo a possession receiver, at least in this offense, here in Cleveland.  No explosive plays, no broken tackles, no Mossing dudes for scores. He can get open, but he’s not dependable and doesn’t do much with the ball when he is open.

Juice is a great safety net, but a “weapon”?  Idk..   Cant stretch the field, can’t beat press coverage considering.  I’m not crapping on him, I think he’s a really solid player, but I don’t think he’s keeping coordinators up at night. He’s a guy you can force feed the ball to and he’ll produce consistently.

Higgins is a possession receiver.

Hooper has done nothing of note here.  

Njoku is inconsistent.

Bryant, Felton, Schwartz, etc., are reserves with some nice attributes.

 

DPJ is the one dude who’s been able to make big plays, contested bail out catches, and win against the man across from him even when covered.

I think when people look at “all of Baker’s weapons” there’s a little bit of emphasis on name recognition more so than what they’re actually doing at this point in their careers.  Of course maybe part of that issue is Baker or the offense or whatever also,..

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22 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

So I’ll just put this here cuz… why not?
 

@MWil23 during his weekly flip flop on Baker (still love you bb) mentioned “how many more weapons does he need?” and honestly it got me thinking (painful experience, don’t recommend).

How many true weapons does Baker have in your opinion outside of the backs right now?

Personally I see it as such.
 

1.  DPJ.  I’ll come back to why.

 

OBJ is imo a possession receiver, at least in this offense, here in Cleveland.  No explosive plays, no broken tackles, no Mossing dudes for scores. He can get open, but he’s not dependable and doesn’t do much with the ball when he is open.

Juice is a great safety net, but a “weapon”?  Idk..   Cant stretch the field, can’t beat press coverage considering.  I’m not crapping on him, I think he’s a really solid player, but I don’t think he’s keeping coordinators up at night. He’s a guy you can force feed the ball to and he’ll produce consistently.

Higgins is a possession receiver.

Hooper has done nothing of note here.  

Njoku is inconsistent.

Bryant, Felton, Schwartz, etc., are reserves with some nice attributes.

 

DPJ is the one dude who’s been able to make big plays, contested bail out catches, and win against the man across from him even when covered.

I think when people look at “all of Baker’s weapons” there’s a little bit of emphasis on name recognition more so than what they’re actually doing at this point in their careers.  Of course maybe part of that issue is Baker or the offense or whatever also,..

Yeah this is where I've been. Not many of our guys adjust to a throw and ****** it out of the air. Not saying most receivers do that but the really good ones do. Maybe that has to do with the zip Baker usally puts on the ball, might make it tougher to adjust.

DPJ is certainly looks like our best explosive player. Along with Njoku when he catches the ball (also without jumping) no one else is likely to regularly make a play on their own.

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5 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

DPJ is certainly looks like our best explosive player. Along with Njoku when he catches the ball (also without jumping) no one else is likely to regularly make a play on their own.

You’re 100% right and it’s what I’ve been saying. I don’t think it’s a coincidence our best weapons are taller and elite athletes. I think our front office screwed up getting short guys. The only short guy who plays at a high level is Jarvis.

 

Our “weapons” are butter knives.

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1 minute ago, candyman93 said:

You’re 100% right and it’s what I’ve been saying. I don’t think it’s a coincidence our best weapons are taller and elite athletes. I think our front office screwed up getting short guys. The only short guy who plays at a high level is Jarvis.

 

Our “weapons” are butter knives.

I wouldn’t say they screwed up, I think we definitely needed som speed.

Schwartz was a project from day one.  I think the goal for him is eventually he’s a guy you can line up outside and who can keep safeties honest.  You need that guy whether they get the ball a lot or not.

Im still bullish on Felton.  I think he needs more touches and a chance to run an expanded route tree.  I think he’s more than a screen guy.

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Imo Baker just needs bigger receivers who can come down with contested throws against man coverage, find open zones and simply catch the ball.

Draft some productive college dude who’s like 6’3+ and who maybe ran a less than ideal 40 that caused them to slide to day 2-3.

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I still love you all, but we are talking about a guy who has played 50+ games and still is producing at a middling level. I'm not saying that Baker is bad; I'm saying that he's average.

If you guys want to believe it's due to a lack of weapons, poor OL play in the OT spots, etc., then that's fine  to a point.  Goodness knows I'm not an OBJ apologist, but Baker absolutely missed him on back to back downs (3rd and 4th) because he couldn't read an overload blitz and hit him on a slant and then on a crossing route over the middle (and took a sack).

Baker's issues are far beyond a lack of weapons. He still can't read a blitz, really struggles under pressure (as in, almost last in the NFL in this area), and makes too many "radio ball" throws. I'm not expecting him to be "great" under pressure, but he's TERRIBLE under pressure, mostly due to lack of recognition on where pressure is coming from and where he needs to go presnap.

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