Goff

[jrry32]

7 minutes ago, max said:

As Kurt Warner said, we know what Goff is.

He will never be more than an adequate starter. The limitations are there for anyone with an unbiased eye to see.

He's already been more than an adequate starter.

[FrantikRam]

For my part, I've been consistent on Goff for years.

After the 2018, season, I did NOT want to extend him. I wanted to see improvement.

2019 was an incomplete (because of OL injuries) but trending in the wrong direction. 2020 showed massive regression, made worse by the fact that my opinion was we had the best roster in the league sans QB. I was done with him after the second Niners game.

 

I think fans struggle to apply context to these situations - so Goff was probably too highly thought of from the jump with McVay. That scheme, those players - a lot of QBs would have had success.

 

But Goff also teased - you can make a very real argument that his performance against the Vikings in 2018 was the best QB performance in NFL history. Most attempts with a perfect rating, perfect ball placement on almost every throw. It was crazy. He was in the MVP conversation on this forum after that game.

 

But that was a flash of his potential that he would never fully reach. It'll be interesting to see if he is still in the league after the Lions - he has the talent to be a good backup obviously, but I wonder how Much a team would pay him and if he'd accept such a low salary.

 

All QBs are insanely polarizing for a teams fanbase. If they're not the best or the worst, odds are the fanbase will be divided over how good they truly are.

[rocky_rams]

Goff is certainly not as bad as OP makes him out to be

To be honest he has a lot of talent but the last few years his decline is strictly mental. 
 

it all depends on the situation he’s in. Look at Wentz revive his career in Indy.
 

If Goff somehow ends up in Pittsburgh or NOLA then we’d see a Tannehill type of rebound 

[Sugashane]

23 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Are we pretending that's not possible? LOL. It literally happened to the guy who went right after Goff in the same draft. Dude went from being the MVP frontrunner in 2017 to getting benched in 2020.

True. I mean it happens fairly regularly (though not as dramatic usually). Growth isn't linear, injuries, poor coaching, etc. Age isn't the only reason it happens.

Wentz regressed after injury, Tru regressed each year under Nagy (though the ceiling clearly wasn't there either), Bortles regressed, Brissett went from low starter to backup on the Dolphins, etc. All while being young guys.

[J-ALL-DAY]

There is a lot of revisionist history going on. Goff was legitimately good in 2017 and for a good part of 2018. Did he have a great supporting cast? Sure, that goes without saying but he was making some big boy throws and played with more confidence. It's no secret he is not great at reading defenses and McVay helped him greatly in that aspect. But there is no shame in saying he can't carry a bad offense. That's why the truly elite QBs are special. Jackson has been dealing with injury after injury to his skill positions and OL and yet is still carrying the team. Why? He's special. But even special guys without adequate supporting casts can struggle. Brady in 2019 did not look anywhere near the QB he looks now. Goff is not on Brady's level or close to it so when you put garbage around him, he's going to look bad. But he is a guy that can do fine with a good supporting cast so if you put him on a team like the WFT, he will look better and could win a lot of games with them. As mentioned already, Goff is a pure pocket passer but does necessarily have great pocket skills so there is always going to be ceilings on QBs like that. 

If you rank the QBs and then look at the list from say 15-25, those QBs are pretty much all on the same tier and will look good depending on the supporting cast. If they don't have a great supporting cast, they can look very shaky and will have a lot of average to below average seasons. Goff is in that tier. 

[Jlowe22]

Yea everyone needs supporting cast, doesnt matter how great you are.  The greats may never look flat out bad, but they wont exactly light the scoreboard up with garbage support.  

[FrantikRam]

8 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

There is a lot of revisionist history going on. Goff was legitimately good in 2017 and for a good part of 2018. Did he have a great supporting cast? Sure, that goes without saying but he was making some big boy throws and played with more confidence. It's no secret he is not great at reading defenses and McVay helped him greatly in that aspect. But there is no shame in saying he can't carry a bad offense. That's why the truly elite QBs are special. Jackson has been dealing with injury after injury to his skill positions and OL and yet is still carrying the team. Why? He's special. But even special guys without adequate supporting casts can struggle. Brady in 2019 did not look anywhere near the QB he looks now. Goff is not on Brady's level or close to it so when you put garbage around him, he's going to look bad. But he is a guy that can do fine with a good supporting cast so if you put him on a team like the WFT, he will look better and could win a lot of games with them. As mentioned already, Goff is a pure pocket passer but does necessarily have great pocket skills so there is always going to be ceilings on QBs like that. 

If you rank the QBs and then look at the list from say 15-25, those QBs are pretty much all on the same tier and will look good depending on the supporting cast. If they don't have a great supporting cast, they can look very shaky and will have a lot of average to below average seasons. Goff is in that tier. 

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying - however, last year the Rams had the number one D, a top 10 run game, top 10 OL, top 5 coach, and Kupp/Woods - probably a top 10 WR group in terms of skill.

 

Some of that is subjective - although we have some evidence now with Kupp who is off a historic start - but what can be measured - top defense and top 10 run game, top 5 in sacks allowed - I'd love to see how many QBs have ever had that and what their numbers looked like.

And he had his worst season.

[ET80]

*Goof.

[Hunter2_1]

Yeah things had to be perfect for him. He did have legit great games, but he had to be in a softly cushioned chariot ride to excel

if he had to walk in the mud, he was shell shocked. 
 

toward the end, he even squandered some really good game planning where he used to light the opposition up. See McVay defend his option play call against the Jets when the lost. The one where Goff threw a yolo on 4th down. 
 

He may play for another team, but we’ll never see his peak season form again. No one can provide that chariot ride like McVay

[fortdetroit]

He purposely threw the ball out of bounds on 4th down today - the second time in three games he has done that. This guy is such a bum.

[Hunter2_1]

1 hour ago, fortdetroit said:

He purposely threw the ball out of bounds on 4th down today - the second time in three games he has done that. This guy is such a bum.

He is a backup at best level QB.

McVay in the conversation for GOAT offensive coach this century 

[fortdetroit]

On 10/31/2021 at 4:45 PM, Hunter2_1 said:

He is a backup at best level QB.

McVay in the conversation for GOAT offensive coach this century 

Agreed.  Top tier backup.  Bottom 5 type starter.  

What McVay got out of this guy for a couple years there is absolutely amazing. You can see why he was so desperate to upgrade to Stafford this offseason - it's been a significant upgrade, not just a slight upgrade like many predicted.

[jrry32]

On 10/31/2021 at 4:45 PM, Hunter2_1 said:

He is a backup at best level QB.

McVay in the conversation for GOAT offensive coach this century 

He's a starting caliber guy. At this stage, he simply reflects the talent around him. 

[fortdetroit]

5 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

He's a starting caliber guy. At this stage, he simply reflects the talent around him. 

Na.  He's a turnover/fumble machine who doesn't read the field well, stares down his reads, and dumps the ball down all the time because he's indecisive. Papering over that type of bad play with better stats in a better situation with better teammates doesn't make him a starting caliber player, it just makes his stats better.  He's been the same guy forever.

You can cover up his flaws with a great roster and top end offensive coaching like the Rams did, but you can do that to some extent with almost any NFL caliber QB.  Not a starter.

 

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, fortdetroit said:

Na.  He's a turnover/fumble machine who doesn't read the field well, stares down his reads, and dumps the ball down all the time because he's indecisive. Papering over that type of bad play with better stats in a better situation with better teammates doesn't make him a starting caliber player, it just makes his stats better.  He's been the same guy forever.

The same guy went to back to back Pro Bowls, led his team to a Super Bowl, led the NFL's highest scoring offense in 2017 and second highest scoring offense in 2018, and ranked in the top 10 in passer rating in back to back years. He did all that before 25 years old. He didn't use to dump the ball down all the time. He didn't use to stare down his reads. And he saw the field well enough to accomplish all those things. If manufacturing top QB play was so easy, teams wouldn't be paying out of their arses to keep their QBs. Nah, Goff was just a good player. Right now, he's not that guy.

Quote

You can cover up his flaws with a great roster and top end offensive coaching like the Rams did, but you can do that to some extent with almost any NFL caliber QB. Not a starter.

Great coaches find a way to cover up flaws and play to strengths. But the claim that you can get almost any NFL caliber QB to produce like a top 5 or 10 QB is frankly laughable. If you put a lot of talent around starting caliber guys and find a scheme that plays to their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses, they can do great things for you. Goff and Tannehill are both examples of that. But those guys still have to have the ability. And QBs who aren't starting caliber don't have that ability. Otherwise, we'd see backups routinely doing what guys like Goff and Tannehill have. 

I hope Goff has an opportunity to find a team that gives him a chance at success again, like Tannehill did. The 2021 Lions aren't that. If you give a guy like Goff one of the least talented offenses in the NFL, he's not going to perform for you. He's not going to elevate that offense.