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O-7: Who Is a Building Block and Who May Not Be


Just Want A Title

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Despite the fact that that Lions lost, I think they showed a lot of positive things to come if they can keep things going in the right direction.  That being said, there are some guys who are legitimate building blocks and some who are not.  Here is how I see things:

Offense

QB-We may have terrible receivers but Jared Goff is nothing more than a serviceable starter/game manager at this point.  Blough might have some potential but looks more like a solid back-up QB.

RB-D'Andre Swift is really starting to flash and has a bright future if he stays healthy.  Jamal WIlliams is a good #2 RB and doesn't have a lot of tread on the tires.  It would be nice to see Jermar Jefferson get some reps because he is a little bigger than our other backs.  His future is TBD

TE:  I like TJ Hockenson but somehow never strikes me as a dominant player.  He is a solid blocker and good in the passing game but doesn't strike me as someone who can dominate a game like Rob Gronkowski used to do or Darren Waller can in the passing game.  It may be how he is used right now though.  We don't have much beyond him.

O-Line-Plenty of good things here.  Sewell and Ragnow have bright futures.  Taylor Decker is really good, is under contract and should be around for a while.  Jonah Jackson hasn't taken a step forward that people expected and I am not sure how long he will keep his roster spot.  Matt Nelson as a solid back-up but hasn't shown much more than that.

WR-Nothing to talk about here.  We have a bunch of guys that are #2,#3 and #4 WRs.  St. Brown has some potential.  Hodge is a decent talent.  Not much to write home about beyond that.

D-Line-Plenty of good stuff here also.  Julian Okwara is really starting to play well.  McNeil and Onwuzurike seem to be improving steadily.  Trey Flowers is solid but can't stay healthy.  Brockers is too old to be considered a building block.  Penisini has been pretty solid in a rotational role and is worth keeping.  Kevin Strong flashes but he might get caught up in a numbers game

LB-Phillip Barnes seems to be improving steadily.  Charles Harris is playing the run and pass pretty well.  Hopefully he sticks around after this year.   Reeves-Mabin has been playing well and might be a solid role-player.  Anzalone has been playing better but I am not sure how long he sticks around as we upgrade our LBs.

CB-Brad Holmes deserves some praise for unearthing some "diamonds in the rough"  and our future isn't totally blown.  Jerry Jacobs is holding up surprisingly well and if he continues to improve we might have something with him.  Oruwariye is a solid #2CB but his not-great top end speed leaves him exposed sometimes.  Could a move to S be in his future?  AJ Parker has improved steadily and it looks like we might have something there also.  Melifonwu was flashing before going down with an injury so he should be in our plans for a while.  Bobby Price seems like a decent back-up at this point but could develop.  Even without Okudah, this group seems to have a good future

Safety-Tracy Walker is playing extremely well and might be the only true building block in this group.  CJ Moore has shown some improvement and carved out a role for himself.  Harris should note be starting and has no future with the Lions.  Nothing much else to write home about.  

 

Who do you see as building blocks?  Thoughts?

Edited by Just Want A Title
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Tracy Walker is a free agent and I am not trusting him enough to give him big money.  If we end up giving out bigger money, I would rather sign Marcus Williams since NO is strapped for cash and he has a history with Glenn.  

We have a lot of pieces that can help in the future but we don't yet have anyone to build around.  Nobody who is so good at their position that you design a scheme around them.  I Like our O Line for the future but want to upgrade the guard positions.  I don't think its urgent to spend a top pick on but it would greatly help.  Having any WRs that require a double team or scare a defense would help the whole offense open up.  Hock is doubled often and Swift faces more safety's in the box because nobody scares defenses, or maybe its Goff who doesn't scare them.  Either way, it makes it hard to evaluate players.  

I like the direction, and I like seeing youth get better, that was my goal for the season.  I am hoping the extra picks the next couple years can put us over the hump finally.  

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It’s hard to discuss building blocks beyond the obvious at this point.

1. Ragnow

2. Sewell

3. Swift

4. Williams

5. Barnes

6. Hockenson

7. Onwuzurike

8. Oruwariye

9. McNeil

10. Fox

Possible

1. Cephus

2. St. Brown

3. Jackson

4. Jacobs

5. Nelson

6. Okwara (both)

Players not building blocks but valued

1. Decker age places him here. He could spend five or more years with the Lions or be traded.

2. Flowers….trade bait

3. Brockers

 

 

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I know this is somewhat of a hot take but Goff is both not the answer and also not the problem, ultimately, at QB. 

STAFFORD - 2020

  • Kenny Golladay > Big money from the Giants
  • Marvin Jones > Leading WR in Jacksonville
  • Danny Amendola > Not doing much in Houston

GOFF - 2021

  • Kalif Raymond > Principally special teams only
  • Amon-Ra St. Brown (R)
  • KhaDarel Hodge (1 start in past 3 years; 30 targets from 2018 - 2020)

Goff has a few things that Stafford historically hasn't - an improved rushing attack (I really like the Swift/Williams combo); an improving defense that plays hard and has made some plays instead of the colander that we've had under Quintricia. 

He has absolutely made some boneheaded, wtf was he thinking? plays. He's missed some wide open targets. He's not the long-term answer. He also has had some flashes at times. If Stafford had this kind of supporting cast, the majority of us would have been defending him for ugly plays. Instead we're throwing him out, calling him a bum and wanting to replace him with a guy that really hasn't shown he can handle it either. 

Goff is what he is - an average QB that can excel when he has the pieces around him. He'll be a decent bridge QB while we build the roster and surround our QBOTF with a better supporting cast than Stafford has had for years and certainly than what Goff has right now. 

 

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Actual Building blocks, not many...

1. Ragnow (Legit long term Center)

2. Hockenson (Legit long term starting quality TE)

3. Swift (Shows flashes of being a middle of the pack star at his position, definitely good solid platoon guy at worst)

4. Oruwariye (Looks like at least a decent #3 CB, possibly good solid starting #2)

5. Hopefully Okudah (Hard to say, talent is definitely there)

6. Sewell (Being honest, I haven't watched him much, I hear he's doing well enough)

7. Walker (I guess... He strikes me as another one of those guys that will leave and then become a Pro Bowler for an actual, legitimate NFL franchise)

Everyone else is expendable pretty much... This team needs yet another HUGE influx of talent (which would basically be the first huge influx of talent in my lifetime)...

 

Edited by DOBSON10
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9 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

I know this is somewhat of a hot take but Goff is both not the answer and also not the problem, ultimately, at QB. 

STAFFORD - 2020

  • Kenny Golladay > Big money from the Giants
  • Marvin Jones > Leading WR in Jacksonville
  • Danny Amendola > Not doing much in Houston

GOFF - 2021

  • Kalif Raymond > Principally special teams only
  • Amon-Ra St. Brown (R)
  • KhaDarel Hodge (1 start in past 3 years; 30 targets from 2018 - 2020)

Goff has a few things that Stafford historically hasn't - an improved rushing attack (I really like the Swift/Williams combo); an improving defense that plays hard and has made some plays instead of the colander that we've had under Quintricia. 

He has absolutely made some boneheaded, wtf was he thinking? plays. He's missed some wide open targets. He's not the long-term answer. He also has had some flashes at times. If Stafford had this kind of supporting cast, the majority of us would have been defending him for ugly plays. Instead we're throwing him out, calling him a bum and wanting to replace him with a guy that really hasn't shown he can handle it either. 

Goff is what he is - an average QB that can excel when he has the pieces around him. He'll be a decent bridge QB while we build the roster and surround our QBOTF with a better supporting cast than Stafford has had for years and certainly than what Goff has right now. 

 

I kind of remember a fair amount of people saying this before Caldwell came here about Stafford. Not all, but quite a few. Stafford made some really crappy decisions early in his career. I wonder if we are seeing the same thing with Goff since he would have been about the same age as Stafford was during those years.

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5 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I kind of remember a fair amount of people saying this before Caldwell came here about Stafford. Not all, but quite a few. Stafford made some really crappy decisions early in his career. I wonder if we are seeing the same thing with Goff since he would have been about the same age as Stafford was during those years.

He mostly just had a bad run under Lombardi

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I'm starting to worry about Sewell. Not panicking but I am concerned.

Swift is an obvious asset. 

I still like Cephus a good bit.

I have no doubt if Hock was in a prolific offense he would put up prolific numbers. Look what he did last year.

Okwara is really starting to flash. It'd be big if he turned out to be a hit.

I've been a little disappointed with the rookie DT tandem but they have made some plays.

I like Derrick Barnes a lot. I think he is an absolute building block for our LB room.

Jacobs and Parker have both played surprisingly well. I wouldn't count on both of them keeping it up but it'd be gravy if just one did. Amani still has a lot to clean up but he has the ability if he can put it all together.

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8 hours ago, LionArkie said:

I kind of remember a fair amount of people saying this before Caldwell came here about Stafford. Not all, but quite a few. Stafford made some really crappy decisions early in his career. I wonder if we are seeing the same thing with Goff since he would have been about the same age as Stafford was during those years.

To stay in line with the theme of this post (foundation for team in 2-3 years)

  • Goff (as a 2-3 year bridge)
  • Swift
  • Sewell
  • Ragnow
  • Decker
  • Hockenson

The biggest issue for me is that we have so many boom-or-bust guys. If some of the young corners hit, Okudah isn't a bust, the rookie DT's meet expectations, Barnes becomes who we need him to be then we have a lot of decent young talent to build on top of. If we lose on most of those guys, especially Okudah, then it's going to be an even longer rebuild.

 

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I think that we have a lot of "maybe" guys. Like, Jonah Jackson is OK. Does he count as a building block if he can be an average starter for a couple of more years? 

I think that Tracy Walker is pretty good - he might be really good if he had anyone halfway decent to play the other safety position. Is he a building block? Is Oruwariye a building block if you think he's a good but not great #2 corner? What about a guy like St.-Brown or Cephus, who may be sound #3 receivers? 

I think we have a lot of solid role player/average starters right now, more so on offense than on defense. Swift/Hock/Ragnow/Sewell could be legit elite talents, and Decker is really good too. But on defense...there's just a lot of guys with potential. Romeo was looking like a building block but you never know how he'll come back now. 

Edited by Lions017
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39 minutes ago, Lions017 said:

I think that we have a lot of "maybe" guys. Like, Jonah Jackson is OK. Does he count as a building block if he can be an average starter for a couple of more years? 

I think that Tracy Walker is pretty good - he might be really good if he had anyone halfway decent to play the other safety position. Is he a building block? Is Oruwariye a building block if you think he's a good but not great #2 corner? What about a guy like St.-Brown or Cephus, who may be sound #3 receivers? 

I think we have a lot of solid role player/average starters right now, more so on offense than on defense. Swift/Hock/Ragnow/Sewell could be legit elite talents, and Decker is really good too. But on defense...there's just a lot of guys with potential. Romeo was looking like a building block but you never know how he'll come back now. 

100% Agree here. 

At WR, it's going to be a huge question mark on how to move forward with things. We're going to have to sign at least 1 vet. 

WR1 - 

WR2 - 

WR3 - Cephus

WR4 - St. Brown

WR5 - Raymond?

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3 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

100% Agree here. 

At WR, it's going to be a huge question mark on how to move forward with things. We're going to have to sign at least 1 vet. 

WR1 - 

WR2 - 

WR3 - Cephus

WR4 - St. Brown

WR5 - Raymond?

I read an article yesterday about us trading for Michael Thomas.  He has been a diva but also has been a great WR and has familiarity with the staff.  There are a couple pending free agents I would like.  I am guessing LAC do not let Mike Williams walk after his breakout year but would love him.  Chris Godwin is the other I want the most given age and I dont think TB can afford him unless everyone takes discounts again.  Lesser guys that are interesting would be Courtland Sutton, Christian Kirk, Juju, DJ Chark, or Gallup.  I wouldn't mind signing a couple of these guys even as I don't really see Cephus as a long term option. 

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5 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I read an article yesterday about us trading for Michael Thomas.  He has been a diva but also has been a great WR and has familiarity with the staff.  There are a couple pending free agents I would like.  I am guessing LAC do not let Mike Williams walk after his breakout year but would love him.  Chris Godwin is the other I want the most given age and I dont think TB can afford him unless everyone takes discounts again.  Lesser guys that are interesting would be Courtland Sutton, Christian Kirk, Juju, DJ Chark, or Gallup.  I wouldn't mind signing a couple of these guys even as I don't really see Cephus as a long term option. 

Thomas currently has a cap hit of around $10M. It increases to $24M in 2022. If we do trade for him, we would absolutely need to restructure that deal. He's going to be 29 so I have a hard time seeing that happen. 

If we go the FA route, there's a few guys you've mentioned who are younger. According to Spotrac, the market value for these guys is:

  • Courtland Sutton - $16.9M x 5 years (Currently has a $2.9M cap hit)
  • Christian Kirk - No value indicated (Currently has a $3M cap hit)
  • DJ Chark - $11.9M x 4 years > Currently injured
  • Michael Gallup - No value indicated (Currently has a $2.5M cap hit) > Currently injured
  • Juju - No value indicated (Currently has a $2.4M cap hit) > Currently injured
  • Chris Godwin - No value indicated (Currently has a $15.8M cap hit)

If we look at Kenny G's contract (recently signed big money deal for similar type of receiver), he has a 2021 cap hit of $4M with cap hits in later years of $21M+. 

If we signed someone, say, Courtland Sutton to a Kenny G type of deal to be our WR1 we could have a 2022 cap hit of around $4 - $6M and then have it increase in 2023 when Jared Goff is likely to be replaced. Cutting [Goff] would save us $20M and we'd be looking at $82M in cap room (cutting Goff, Flowers, Vaitai would give us $108M). 

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