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Is It Time for A QB Change?


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5 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Imo Goff broke during the Superbowl. I was hoping being traded would put a chip on his shoulder for him to fix himself but it only appears to have magnified the damage.

Detroit was probably the worst place possible for him to rebuild his confidence. To me, it seems like it is a confidence/trust issue in the games I’ve watched. But maybe I’m way off.

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Just found this article. It’s old, but found it interesting.

https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2021/2/1/22260173/what-happened-jared-goff-los-angeles-rams-statistical-breakdown-detroit-lions

it’s just stats, but it’s interesting nonetheless. 
https://sidelionreport.com/2021/11/10/jared-goff-category-by-himself-stat/

either way, I’m not defending Goff. But I’m wondering if we had a healthy oline and some legitimate receivers if he couldn’t be a decent game manager? If I remember right the lions were wanting chase in the draft. Maybe Holmes knowing what Goff needs to succeed will go after that this year.

I’ll just put in a pass for all things lions this year and see what we do next year, but if the answer ends up being more trinity benson trades and other teams outcasts, then I’ll just wait until the next regime change.

**edit - I’ll add this as well.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-the-best-quarterbacks-on-first-and-second-read-throws-patrick-mahomes-drew-brees-aaron-rodgers

Edited by LionArkie
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42 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

What percentage of the ineptitude of this offense do you blame on:

- Jared Goff

- Dan Campbell

- Anthony Lynn

- Brad Holmes

Holmes gets a pass from me at this point. We have no way of knowing what he’s tried to do outside the draft. Which, if any free agent wide receivers he tried to sign but chose other teams. Golden Tate on the Titans practice squad is an example.

Jared Goff about 20%. Thursday was his best game as a Lion. He avoided ten yard drops, spinning into pressure and his medium throw accuracy was better. Thursdays Goff is who I imagined the Lions were getting. I place no blame on Goff for Thursdays loss. His blame assignment is from previous games.

Anthony Lynn, 10%. Campbell is calling plays.

Dan Campbell 20% While he has everyone ready to play and they fight hard his game management and play calling has been less than acceptable.

Injuries 30%

Players 20%, It’s still up to them to execute.

The sad truth is Quintricia destroyed the franchise. It was made worse by the reluctance to fire them.

The current regime inherited a team with so many inadequacies it would’ve taken a miracle to fix the roster in the limited time they’ve had. Holmes also inherited a less than desirable cap situation.

As a rookie regime Campbell, Holmes gets some slack but Campbell has been really bad as a play caller and he should do the right thing and give the responsibility back to Lynn.

 

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13 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Holmes gets a pass from me at this point. We have no way of knowing what he’s tried to do outside the draft. Which, if any free agent wide receivers he tried to sign but chose other teams. Golden Tate on the Titans practice squad is an example.

Jared Goff about 20%. Thursday was his best game as a Lion. He avoided ten yard drops, spinning into pressure and his medium throw accuracy was better. Thursdays Goff is who I imagined the Lions were getting. I place no blame on Goff for Thursdays loss. His blame assignment is from previous games.

Anthony Lynn, 10%. Campbell is calling plays.

Dan Campbell 20% While he has everyone ready to play and they fight hard his game management and play calling has been less than acceptable.

Injuries 30%

Players 20%, It’s still up to them to execute.

The sad truth is Quintricia destroyed the franchise. It was made worse by the reluctance to fire them.

The current regime inherited a team with so many inadequacies it would’ve taken a miracle to fix the roster in the limited time they’ve had. Holmes also inherited a less than desirable cap situation.

As a rookie regime Campbell, Holmes gets some slack but Campbell has been really bad as a play caller and he should do the right thing and give the responsibility back to Lynn.

 

Campbell has only been calling plays the last 3 games. We've lost a lot of other games before then. Should Lynn get more blame?

Injuries happen on every team and every roster. It's tough to overcome with a roster already devoid of talent but the Lions aren't the only team to have those struggles. 

I don't like the idea of blaming a prior regime for the issues of a current regime. It's like being a politician and blaming the last person in charge for everything going wrong now despite being the one actually in charge. It's true that there is carryover leading to some of the challenges but our offense wasn't a huge issue last year. That was the defense. Now it's the defense that is keeping this team in games and it's the offense holding them back. Should Quintricia be given credit for the defense bouncing back? Absolutely not. So I don't think we can hold (Quintricia) largely to blame for the offense struggling. Campbell and co. have the power to do what is needed to fix things. 

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3 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Campbell has only been calling plays the last 3 games. We've lost a lot of other games before then. Should Lynn get more blame?

Injuries happen on every team and every roster. It's tough to overcome with a roster already devoid of talent but the Lions aren't the only team to have those struggles. 

I don't like the idea of blaming a prior regime for the issues of a current regime. It's like being a politician and blaming the last person in charge for everything going wrong now despite being the one actually in charge. It's true that there is carryover leading to some of the challenges but our offense wasn't a huge issue last year. That was the defense. Now it's the defense that is keeping this team in games and it's the offense holding them back. Should Quintricia be given credit for the defense bouncing back? Absolutely not. So I don't think we can hold (Quintricia) largely to blame for the offense struggling. Campbell and co. have the power to do what is needed to fix things. 

You were one of the last holdouts supporting Quintricia. You’ve always been reluctant to recognize the damage they did to the franchise. How is the current regime supposed to fix everything in one year? That’s unreasonable and unattainable.

Being in charge following total incompetence certainly has a massive hangover. You mention blaming past politicians when no longer in charge. How convenient letting those who cause issues off the hook. There are issues, many faced in Canada and the U.S. that can be placed in past Governments. In Canada our federal government has created what’s going to become a financial nightmare. You’re suggesting the blame for that would be on a subsequent government which is simply wrong. Is it a future Governments fault if our current Government foolishly spends money, can’t procure equipment, build ships, buy fighters? Of course it isn’t.

I guess our rapid transit boondoggle which will be passed on to a future council will be their fault. I could search back but I believe with every regime change you’ve supported giving them time to overcome deficiencies created by past GM’s, and coaches.

You supported Quintricia claiming they needed time. 

Yes they have some power to change things but it takes time. You have ZERO knowledge of things behind the scenes. You have very little knowledge of players that may have refused offers from the Lions. You have next to no knowledge of trades Holmes has attempted to make.

Given your reluctance to hold Patricia and Quinn accountable I’m surprised by your efforts to attach blame this early in a complete rebuild. Offence defence, it’s part of the same organization. Holmes had limited resources and they chose to ignore offensive skill positions and improve line play. A philosophy I 100% agree with.

Perhaps Lynn does deserve more blame however last I checked Campbell was head coach, stripped him of play calling and has failed. So Campbell deserves more of the blame. Perhaps you would care to point out when Lynn committed to running the ball repeatedly when the Lions were in long yardage because of oline penalties. Campbells play calling has been beyond bad.

Injuries happen to every team but not in a vacuum. Without adequate depth you can’t be competitive. Again Holmes inherited a lousy roster with inadequate depth. It sure would be nice to have some if the good players back that Patricia jettisoned. Is it Holmes fault? Of course not but he has to repair the damage.

I was reluctant to provide an answer to your question. Why? Because it’s 100% subjective with no metrics or performance evaluation guidelines. It’s mere subjective opinion.


 

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4 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

You don’t think players and injuries are part of the issue?

I think our lack of wide receivers is the biggest issue. I think our two free agent signings at wr and our trade for Benson were terrible. I think Goff has no confidence from his time in LA, and less in this receiving corp who can’t get much separation. I think DC has no faith in the passing game and is forced to run on 3 and 73. I think if our wr could get a little separation, Goff could pass for more than 3 yards and help mask our ol injuries. I think our defense has done well in lieu of injuries and is promising, but this passing game…

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5 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

What percentage of the ineptitude of this offense do you blame on:

- Jared Goff

- Dan Campbell

- Anthony Lynn

- Brad Holmes

I'd say Campbell, Goff, Holmes, Lynn.

Head Coach doesn't have to be an excellent play caller, he's got to be solid manager of men and talent though. Campbell is clearly learning play calling on the job and might be a little over-whelmed right now. Could be valuable experience now used for this off-season or next when Lynn leaves for a different job and Campbell's looking for another coordinator with play calling talent.

You can only do so much with Goff talent around him or not... and he himself has been hurt so it's even worst/more limited at times this season.

Holmes didn't add WR's seemingly by design and it's hurting the team/development bad. Can't fix the team in one year but, man didn't have to strike out at basically every WR transaction either in the off-season.

Anthony Lynn had the offense better than Campbell, he's basically just running practice now so I don't think you can hold his feet to the fire too hard yet. I've got a feeling he's verbally committed to a different job and told everyone within our organization and is playing out the year. No facts backing that up just kind of reading between the lines with the USC booster reaching out and his play calling duties stripped.

Edited by SimbaWho
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1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

You were one of the last holdouts supporting Quintricia. You’ve always been reluctant to recognize the damage they did to the franchise. How is the current regime supposed to fix everything in one year? That’s unreasonable and unattainable.

Being in charge following total incompetence certainly has a massive hangover. You mention blaming past politicians when no longer in charge. How convenient letting those who cause issues off the hook. There are issues, many faced in Canada and the U.S. that can be placed in past Governments. In Canada our federal government has created what’s going to become a financial nightmare. You’re suggesting the blame for that would be on a subsequent government which is simply wrong. Is it a future Governments fault if our current Government foolishly spends money, can’t procure equipment, build ships, buy fighters? Of course it isn’t.

I guess our rapid transit boondoggle which will be passed on to a future council will be their fault. I could search back but I believe with every regime change you’ve supported giving them time to overcome deficiencies created by past GM’s, and coaches.

You supported Quintricia claiming they needed time. 

Yes they have some power to change things but it takes time. You have ZERO knowledge of things behind the scenes. You have very little knowledge of players that may have refused offers from the Lions. You have next to no knowledge of trades Holmes has attempted to make.

Given your reluctance to hold Patricia and Quinn accountable I’m surprised by your efforts to attach blame this early in a complete rebuild. Offence defence, it’s part of the same organization. Holmes had limited resources and they chose to ignore offensive skill positions and improve line play. A philosophy I 100% agree with.

Perhaps Lynn does deserve more blame however last I checked Campbell was head coach, stripped him of play calling and has failed. So Campbell deserves more of the blame. Perhaps you would care to point out when Lynn committed to running the ball repeatedly when the Lions were in long yardage because of oline penalties. Campbells play calling has been beyond bad.

Injuries happen to every team but not in a vacuum. Without adequate depth you can’t be competitive. Again Holmes inherited a lousy roster with inadequate depth. It sure would be nice to have some if the good players back that Patricia jettisoned. Is it Holmes fault? Of course not but he has to repair the damage.

I was reluctant to provide an answer to your question. Why? Because it’s 100% subjective with no metrics or performance evaluation guidelines. It’s mere subjective opinion.


 

1) Fix in one year: Zero expectations that the team should/would be fixed in one year. I'm not calling for Campbell's head. The offense is struggling and I'm wondering with 100% being the total, how much of that is each major party to blame for at this point? I am giving Campbell and co. the same amount of time that I gave Patricia/Quinn - 3 years. 

2) Prior Governments: It is just one example being used but as you've brought out a few examples, it doesn't change things. Our current PM constantly brings up the prior government anytime there is a challenge without recognizing that they have been in power for 6 years. At some point you can't keep pointing the fingers at someone else for things not working out. A new government or a new regime will obviously face challenges from decisions made by those who were previously in charge. To place all blame on them is absolving responsibility for those currently in charge. 

3) Quintricia: I stated on several occasions that I felt the regime should have been given the full 3 years to fulfill their vision of the team. Whether they were going to be successful or not was up for debate (and it wasn't). I didn't feel that we should be pulling the plug until we had been in the 3rd season and see where things were headed. 

4) Holmes/Blame: This is a new year under a new regime. The defense has bounced back while the offense is really really struggling. The question is - is it Goff? Was it Lynn? Is it Campbell (and his playcalling)? Is it because Holmes did not properly address the QB position and/or WR position? It's an open question to the group to get people's perspectives. If you don't think Holmes is to blame, then say 0%. If you think it's all Anthony Lynn, give him 100%. If it's Goff, then say that. That's all. I'm not throwing anyone to the wolves. 

5) Injuries: Offensively, this hasn't been THAT much of an issue for us. Decker was out for a bit but he's back. Ragnow's loss is a big one but Evan Brown hasn't been too bad in that spot. Overall, I don't believe that injuries have played as significant of a factor on the offense than an argument could be made on defense. That secondary has been beaten up and they've brought in guys basically off of the street who have performed. Overall, I am thrilled with the job that Glenn and Pleasant have been doing with that group and the defense as a whole. 

6) Team Building Philosophy: I am in agreement with you. I like this approach of building through the trenches and I am personally not in favour of taking a QB next year. I'd like to see Holmes continue to build out the roster and add talent instead of trying to plug the gap and then work to build around a young QB. I'd rather have the team built and drop a QB (rookie, FA, trade) into a well built roster instead of taking a young guy, trying to build around him, hope he develops and then have to pay him big money by the time the team is good (if he actually turns out at all). It might prolong the rebuilding process by another year but it feels like the right move to replace what has been lost under the prior regime. 

Everything we talk about on here is subjective and near meaningless. Holmes and/or Campbell (or Quinn or Patricia) aren't coming in here to see what we have to say. Our opinions won't have any impact on the field. It was merely an attempt to understand what other guys think about the team, principally around our offensive struggles. 

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11 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Break it down - can't be 100% for everyone

Ok. We won’t address the mess left to Holmes and Co and we will only start from the roster they had and the deals they made after their hiring. I wont consider the rebuild, which isnt fair, but I can only speculate on what their future plans are. So this is how i will break it down.

Holmes - 70%. The offense is the biggest issue of this team and specifically the WR group. Holmes inherited Stafford, Jones, Galloday. No contract was offered to the two WRs, Stafford was traded. There goes the offense. Without Stafford over the last 10 years the lions are 0-15. Guess what? We’re winless again. He was familiar with Goff so he should have known what Goff needed and he failed. This offense is Holmes work. The Trinity Benson trade, I’ve already b*****d about this enough. But when you need draft capital and WR and you trade capital for a guy who can’t get off the Lions practice squad at WR that is an epic fail. His free agent moves at wr were for a guy who sucked and a guy who is injured. Guess what we got? A guy who sucks and a guy who is injured. Who would have guessed?

 

20% - Jared Goff. This guy is tying campbells hands as he is not the type of qb who makes others around him better. If you have sucky receivers, he’s going to suck. That’s Goff. Its not his fault he has sucky receivers, but work on bettering your progressions. If you can’t, no one can help you.

10% - Dan Campbell. Last year the defense cost us wins. This year it is keeping us in games with less talent. We can say it’s because of Glenn and Pleasant, but they came here because of Campbell. He deserves credit there. The team seems to like playing for him and he hasn’t lost the team yet. That’s impressive. He took over play calling duties, but there are reports that Goff and Lynn can’t get along and that’s why dc took over.of course those rumors are being denied. So who knows. So if Goff who is under performing, and was brought in by Holmes, I’m not going to put that on Campbell. I think he’s trying to get through to his qb, and yet has no confidence in him. That’s a tough balancing act. I dont blame him in calling a run on 3 and 23. If you run for 3.5 ypc and throw for 2.6 yards you have a better chance on converting with the run on this team. It sucks, but we don’t have play makers. That’s this team.

0% - Anthony Lynne unless he started some feud with Goff, I don’t see how he is responsible. He called our only 30 point game this year and he has to work within the parameters of what Holmes provides and what Campbell wants to do. So I dont put anything on him at this point.

I won’t address injuries because that wasn’t part of the question. 

This team is exactly what I thought they would be. I think I said several times it would be between 0-3 wins.

Quintricia stripped this team of most of the talent, and then Holmes shipped off the rest and tbh, I really don’t like the return we received compared to what Carolina offered. I get Stafford wanted out, but we were not under any obligation to trade him. By doing so, it made us much worse for the 2021 season.

im going to say it now, we will have the number 1 pick for the next 3 years.

Edited by LionArkie
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the play call needs to be better but it will always be a gamble and always be changing every play, every game, every team. Crazy part. No team is good forever especially not now. They need to build the trenches. Get some playmakers. Sell tickets. Sucks this year cause this team has no talent at quite a few spots. Crazy we agree on guys and they are solid but then Lions take trash and get terrible results. Like give me a job lmao. Though we like Asante Samuel Jr. and he now has two concussions in like 3 weeks or something like that. Hope he heals up though. Basically I think its easier said then done. I just want to at least look at the team and be like uhhhh. We have like 4 starters...from other good teams. Swift, Hock, Okwara, Walker. Holding out on Okudah because of injury. BUT he is looking like a bust more then a Ramsey. I do like idea some have said at moving to free safety some plays at least. We need better play call on offense. D seems okay. Like give give and then a nice take away. Not sack sack pick. but can live with a stop. Still not good at LB or DT though i like levi

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On 11/26/2021 at 10:33 AM, Karnage84 said:

Campbell has only been calling plays the last 3 games. We've lost a lot of other games before then. Should Lynn get more blame?

Injuries happen on every team and every roster. It's tough to overcome with a roster already devoid of talent but the Lions aren't the only team to have those struggles. 

I don't like the idea of blaming a prior regime for the issues of a current regime. It's like being a politician and blaming the last person in charge for everything going wrong now despite being the one actually in charge. It's true that there is carryover leading to some of the challenges but our offense wasn't a huge issue last year. That was the defense. Now it's the defense that is keeping this team in games and it's the offense holding them back. Should Quintricia be given credit for the defense bouncing back? Absolutely not. So I don't think we can hold (Quintricia) largely to blame for the offense struggling. Campbell and co. have the power to do what is needed to fix things. 

When salary cap and long term contracts are part of the issue, you have to put some on the previous regime.  Just like your example of politics, the state of affairs when you step into your position will have a huge impact on how quickly or drastically things turn around.  We had a lot of bad contracts, we had Stafford ask for a trade and with the dead cap from those bad contracts and the trade, we couldn't also keep Golladay (not sure he would have helped much being hurt all the time anyways).  So yes decisions from a prior regime are impacting this team.  Two years from now that is no excuse, but it is a major impact right now.  

The Stafford trade changed the timeline and direction of this team.  The dead money (how can you win when paying 50M to people not on the team?) crushed us and didn't allow for many moves.  That meant instead of a quick rebuild, we had to completely reset.  I do think Holmes could have done better at WR in free agency, and in fact still think there are guys out there that have to be better than what we have so he gets a decent amount of blame IMO, at least more than DHLF is giving him.  

 

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