2021 Week 11 GDT Steelers at Chargers

[AFF]

Any team with a QB eating up a bunch of cap room is going to have depth issues somewhere...The Browns and Ravens will be experiencing that soon.

In terms of the Steelers...they will have no depth at RB/WR/TE going into offseason.

They will need depth and starters on the OL.

They will need at least depth on the DL and maybe starters depending on Tuitt/Tyson.

They will need at least depth on the edge and ILB is a tossup deoending on what they do with Schobert.

The secondary needs a new SS and 1 CB with depth issues at S and CB.

Thats not factoring what goes on at QB...buckle up it’s gonna be interesting come March.

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

We spent a ton of draft capital and cap capital on the DL and OLB's.  That leaves less for other areas.

This is concept I whole heartedly agree with and why I have been complaining for years now about continually drafting RB's and WR's mid-round. Yes, we may find quality receivers, but how impactful could a DL, S, CB, IOL, T, have been now instead of James Washington, Benny Snell, Jaylen Samuels, or Anthony McFarland?

The Bush pick at this point is a tragic miss, though I understand the logic behind it. But the guys named above never needed to happen. There's 6 draft picks in these two paragraphs (not including the Bush pick itself) that just hurt the way we spent them.

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Would you rather have Tuitt on the line and miss about 40% of snaps (that's his average missed snaps on a year FWIW) OR average 3-4 DL and an average #2 CB.  Think of this one like Tuitt OR Jahad Ward and Steven Nelson.

Would you have rather had Juju (with our deep WR corps) OR an average LBer and average slot WR.  Think of this one as Juju OR Jayon Brown and Cedric Wilson.

That 40% mostly comes from 2 of 8 years though. That's not quite a full story. His low watermark outside of this year and the year he tore his pec was 58% of the snaps. I just think that some of this is okay in a vacuum, but I don't know any team full of average that makes it far in the playoffs or wins a super bowl. Average doesn't continually win in the NFL. You need superstars or game-wreckers, so having a guy like Tuitt makes a lot of sense. JuJu? Probably not so much -- but that cost analysis isn't really holding us back with his $2.4 cap hit, so this isn't all created equal.

And I would just flat our rather have Cam Sutton than Steve Nelson. Nelson has struggled too and, while Cam isn't a one, I am excited to have him and get a better top CB next to him. 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I know we can go down big rabbit holes of the "what ifs" and how that effects things.

Yeah, Im not really interested in going down that path. We can play that game all day, but it works both ways. "What if" Tuitt and Alualu were just healthy? Then Bush is probably better, our 4 man pass rush is far more effective, and that allows our mediocre secondary and Minkah to make plays and play around with 6-7 man coverages. 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

we go down way too fast without one or two guys.

But we are not just talking about 1 or two guys. We are talking about 6 perceived starters this past Sunday. Im not denying there are problems, but I think some of the expectations of what a "good" roster looks like are unworldly. Our run defense has suffered without Tuitt AND Alualu -- it would be better with even just one of them. It's just how it went this year. There was a plan and the football gods seemed to have hated that plan. 

There's no perfect roster in the NFL. But you use strong areas to lift others. We just got decimated in our strong area this year. Watt has missed 2.7 games, Highsmith missed one, Tuitt hasn't played all year, Alualu was gone in game 2. IMO, it's not gonna much matter if you go through that.

[warfelg]

7 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

This is concept I whole heartedly agree with and why I have been complaining for years now about continually drafting RB's and WR's mid-round. Yes, we may find quality receivers, but how impactful could a DL, S, CB, IOL, T, have been now instead of James Washington, Benny Snell, Jaylen Samuels, or Anthony McFarland?

The Bush pick at this point is a tragic miss, though I understand the logic behind it. But the guys named above never needed to happen. There's 6 draft picks in these two paragraphs (not including the Bush pick itself) that just hurt the way we spent them.

It's not just continually drafting those positions.  It's also about trading them away for guys that don't play.  Trading away for players we don't really use.  Need we go through the Boykin saga again (we are actually with Witherspoon).  Then we get sucked into having to sign higher priced guys like DWatt and Killebrew to play special teams.  Constantly paying more through FA for bottom of the barrell return guys.  So you say 6 picks.  I look at starting with the James Washington year (seems like a good jumping off point); 3rd and 7th to move up for Mason Rudolph, 2018 4th for McDonald who we constantly tried to push down the depth chart; 2018 6th who we sent out for Gilbert, got back for Coats, sent out for Wilcox, who got cut; 2019 2nd for Bush, 2019 5th for Switzer, 2020 3rd for Bush, 2020 5th for Nick Vannett, 2022 4th for the 5th to draft Loudermilk, 2022 5th for Avery Williamson, 2022 6th for Schobert.  

Even taking out the 3 2022 picks that's still 7 picks sent out the door for players that didn't help and the 4 picks you counted that didn't help.  That's 11 picks in a 4 pick span that aren't helpful depth.

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That 40% mostly comes from 2 of 8 years though. That's not quite a full story. His low watermark outside of this year and the year he tore his pec was 58% of the snaps. I just think that some of this is okay in a vacuum, but I don't know any team full of average that makes it far in the playoffs or wins a super bowl. Average doesn't continually win in the NFL. You need superstars or game-wreckers, so having a guy like Tuitt makes a lot of sense. JuJu? Probably not so much -- but that cost analysis isn't really holding us back with his $2.4 cap hit, so this isn't all created equal.

Not saying team full of average wins.  But trade off Tuitt at DE for average with Heyward being a game-wrecker to getting average at ILB where we have losers right now.  Juju may be a $2.4mil cap hit but he cost $8mil in cash and comes with a $5.6mil dead cap hit next year.  So imagine that structure impacting us by allowing JW to play more and having that structure be used for a CB.  Yes if Juju is healthy that changes the equation some, but it was still a touch of a luxury. (FWIW what makes the JW pick look bad to me is the emergence of DJ and Chase, for a 3rd round WR JW has been fine)

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And I would just flat our rather have Cam Sutton than Steve Nelson. Nelson has struggled too and, while Cam isn't a one, I am excited to have him and get a better top CB next to him. 

I'd rather have both, which is my point with the "too many high players at one position" thing.  Maybe frame it this way: would you rather have Nelson and $15mil in cap at other places OR Haden and $4mil in cap?

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Yeah, Im not really interested in going down that path. We can play that game all day, but it works both ways. "What if" Tuitt and Alualu were just healthy? Then Bush is probably better, our 4 man pass rush is far more effective, and that allows our mediocre secondary and Minkah to make plays and play around with 6-7 man coverages. 

Which is fair enough.  But even with Tuitt out, Alualu and Heyward were putting together those things, so it plays to my point that just getting some average "do your job" type players is what's needed over spending higher cap.  Because that's what Alualu is.

Quote

But we are not just talking about 1 or two guys. We are talking about 6 perceived starters this past Sunday. Im not denying there are problems, but I think some of the expectations of what a "good" roster looks like are unworldly. Our run defense has suffered without Tuitt AND Alualu -- it would be better with even just one of them. It's just how it went this year. There was a plan and the football gods seemed to have hated that plan. 

There's no perfect roster in the NFL. But you use strong areas to lift others. We just got decimated in our strong area this year. Watt has missed 2.7 games, Highsmith missed one, Tuitt hasn't played all year, Alualu was gone in game 2. IMO, it's not gonna much matter if you go through that.

To me this line of talking is a non-starter because of the bolded.  That's not what's being asked of.  The issue to me is our weak areas don't make use of rookie contracts all that well.

[Dcash4]

20 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Need we go through the Boykin saga again (we are actually with Witherspoon)

This is just an aside but I always kinda wondered if there is a certain disconnect between Tomlin and Colbert at times. Not often, but it feels as if Colbert got a call and thought these made a ton of sense and when the player got here Tomlin was just like nah, I don't like them. Boykin was a good player we just decided not to play. Witherspoon has just been bad. 

23 minutes ago, warfelg said:

So you say 6 picks.  I look at starting with the James Washington year (seems like a good jumping off point); 3rd and 7th to move up for Mason Rudolph, 2018 4th for McDonald who we constantly tried to push down the depth chart; 2018 6th who we sent out for Gilbert, got back for Coats, sent out for Wilcox, who got cut; 2019 2nd for Bush, 2019 5th for Switzer, 2020 3rd for Bush, 2020 5th for Nick Vannett, 2022 4th for the 5th to draft Loudermilk, 2022 5th for Avery Williamson, 2022 6th for Schobert.  

I don't mind all of these moves. Some make sense, but the receivers and RB position never have. At some point it makes more sense to pay for mid-line FA's vs using draft picks for the same positions -- and specifically Running back which just doesn't carry the value. 

25 minutes ago, warfelg said:

comes with a $5.6mil dead cap hit next year

You and I will never see eye to eye on this one and I know that....but his and anyone else's cap hit next year is such an insignificant thing to me. There is nothing but flexibility and increasing cap coming up. We could have $50M dead cap next year and structure a $100M annual contract to pay $1M in year 1 cap hit. Way too much flexibility for me to care about these dead cap hits coming up with our room and the new media money hitting in 2023. 

28 minutes ago, warfelg said:

for a 3rd round WR JW has been fine

Except he was a second -- and the 60th overall. At the time, he would have been fine, but they really didn't need to draft Claypool. That's the issue pick. He made JW irrelevant. You cant make a 60th pick irrelevant because you just kept drafting. Same thing with Bell, Connor, Samuels, Snell, McFarland, and ultimately Najee. You can't keep making high(ish) picks irrelevant because you cant stop drafting that position. 

60th pick Washington to be made irrelevant by Claypool just sucks. I don't like doing this, but imagine if we had Ezra Cleveland, Justin Madubuike, or Trevon Diggs -- all three in positions of need....Instead of Claypool, whose snaps could just have been JW's. 

And now we are at a point where I almost WANT to extend JuJu, just so we have another receiver and DONT have to draft one... I really think we messed that up. 

33 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I'd rather have both, which is my point with the "too many high players at one position" thing

I'll agree, but the problem here is the pandemic crushed the cap. Look back on the last two years and where the projected cap was going to be. I think we would still have Cam, Nelson, and Hilton if the cap never got crushed. Not saying they couldn't do better -- but I do believe some of it was out of their control. 

35 minutes ago, warfelg said:

But even with Tuitt out, Alualu and Heyward were putting together those things, so it plays to my point that just getting some average "do your job" type players is what's needed over spending higher cap.  Because that's what Alualu is.

I agree with this and think it makes sense and I mostly agree with your premises. But I just think that it's easier to pick apart after than make a plan before. 

[CKSteeler]

Does anyone think the Steelers are going back to Mason Rudolph?

[jebrick]

4 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

Does anyone think the Steelers are going back to Mason Rudolph?

not as long as Ben can stand

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, jebrick said:

not as long as Ben can stand

At this point you would be hard pressed to convince me someone other than Ben will be the 2022 day 1 starter.

[Dcash4]

 

 

[August4th]

5 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

 

 

I know claypool has been frustrating with the 50/50 balls, but I swear ben throwing bad passes, not seeing the field or the O-line screwing up has killed claypools and others production. I think ben played fine in this game, but the O-line struggled. The core of this offense blows(0-line and QB)

[cjfollett]

5 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

Does anyone think the Steelers are going back to Mason Rudolph?

I think Rudolph is on the 2022 roster as QB1 at the start of training camp. My crystal ball is cloudy about the rest.

[jebrick]

29 minutes ago, cjfollett said:

I think Rudolph is on the 2022 roster as QB1 at the start of training camp. My crystal ball is cloudy about the rest.

I hope you are right as he will pave the way for a top 10 pick and a decent QB

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, August4th said:

I know claypool has been frustrating with the 50/50 balls, but I swear ben throwing bad passes, not seeing the field or the O-line screwing up has killed claypools and others production. I think ben played fine in this game, but the O-line struggled. The core of this offense blows(0-line and QB)

I would agree. I overall think that Claypool has been very disappointing, but there's a lot of meat left on that bone in terms of production. Like, that play on Sunday was a slam dunk TD for 90% of the starting QB's in the league, and Ben couldn't get it there. 

But then there is also the play on Sunday where he has great positioning and gets bodied by a guy 4 inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter than him and get can't make the grab. I am hoping this offseason he really focuses on detail refinement and play strength.

[cjfollett]

3 hours ago, jebrick said:

I hope you are right as he will pave the way for a top 10 pick and a decent QB

If the Steelers don't panic and take one of the prospects in 22, they likely will have a really good chance for a guy in 23. However, I am still not sure what they might do in free agency. There will be several UFAs at QB, and who knows if they like any of them.

[warfelg]

Ok so @Dcash4 I think this quote from Coach T highlights how we are both right about certain issues:

So, why didn’t they make the change defensively from a coaching standpoint to work with the personnel that was available and do something unexpected (drift away from blitz more into max drop) but it highlights my issue on depth that you have to change scheme with the backups because they are incapable to run the defense you have. 

[Dcash4]

20 hours ago, warfelg said:

Ok so @Dcash4 I think this quote from Coach T highlights how we are both right about certain issues:

So, why didn’t they make the change defensively from a coaching standpoint to work with the personnel that was available and do something unexpected (drift away from blitz more into max drop) but it highlights my issue on depth that you have to change scheme with the backups because they are incapable to run the defense you have. 

Watched the Saban/Belichick doc last night. Saban had a comment that reminded me of this. He basically talked about how you MUST adapt to your players, not have your players adapt to you. 

Two of the greatest coaches ever believe in that. Tomlin believes the “standard is the standard”.