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Kirk Cousins is, by every traditional measure, an excellent QB. So why doesn't he win more?


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He gets hated on because that’s how the NFL works. The NFL chooses their golden boys who don’t get criticized no matter what, and then they choose players who will be unfairly ripped on just for the sake of narratives. For example, Kirk has been superior to Rodgers this year (and really has most recent seasons), and yet Kirk is seen as a joke to many while Rodgers is hilariously in the MVP conversation this season (according to some). 

All in all it’s a team sport. That’s all there is to it. It’s not all on the QB to win games, regardless of the fact that they have the most power on the field. I feel like Kirk gets the Tony Romo treatment. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Cousins is super underrated on this board.

I think the main reason he hasn't won much is because he's been mostly a part of mediocre-at-best teams.

At what point is the mediocre team somewhat based on a mediocre QB?

Cook, Thielen,  (Diggs) Jefferson, Rudolph

Barr, Hunter, Griffen, Smith, Kendricks, Rhodes

Those teams in Minnesota have not lacked for talent is seems.

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It’s a combination of things, but one of them is simply bad luck. On those occasions where he does everything right to put his team in a position to win he is, almost without fail, let down by the defence, the kicker or a running back fumble. Just this year alone the Vikings have blown one score wins at least two or three times when it wasn’t his fault.

Sometimes he’s at fault, obviously, but the “Cousins loses big games meme” is as much the fault of Blair Walsh and the defence as anybody else.

Theres also the offensive coaching in MIN, which is terrible, @Jakuvious posted the third down failures against CIN, but look how many third and longs are in there…that’s entirely because of oddly conservative play calling. They are addicted to run-run-pass, despite having great talent at receiver. It’s not just cousins that suffers for that, either. Look how Diggs’ stats exploded after he left the Vikings, there’s no reason he couldn’t be that player in MIN.

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To really understand why he doesn’t win, I think you have to watch him. A lot. And even having watched every snap he took for years, I don’t necessarily understand the issue — but I do feel very strongly that it’s not just bad luck or coincidence or mediocrity around him. 

The thing with Kirk is that sometimes he looks fantastic. Accurate, great ball placement down the field, confident, efficient. Sometimes he even plays well with the pressure on, as on occasion I’ve seen him orchestrate big-time drives and even make plays in OT of a playoff game. 

But over time, you come to realize that where guys like Brady and Brees typically do all the little things that quietly (but meaningfully) put their teams in marginally better position to win — Kirk is largely the opposite. He so frequently does little things that put your team in better position to lose. Fail to protect the ball when being sacked. Take a sack to push you out of FG range (this one is a personal pet peeve, an absolutely staggering number of Cousins drives seem to end on the very fringe of FG range). Choose the easy checkdown bait instead of pushing the ball past the sticks on 3rd down when you need a spark. Somehow not check out of a run that was obviously doomed. Panic in a pressure spot and throw the ball up for grabs. Somehow finding the worst possible time to go cold or have one of his patented brain-dead moments.

I’ve seen him compared to Alex Smith in this thread, but from having watched a decent amount of both of them, they are polar opposites — at least in terms of the issue of “winning.” Alex had a fraction of the arm talent, but he did all those little things that maximize winning. He understood that short completion > throw away > sack > turnover. He was always playing the down and distance game, as well as the field position game, to make his offense’s life as easy as possible (and the opposing offense’s life as difficult as possible).

Alex played chess, in other words — Kirk plays checkers. He’s very good at checkers, don’t get me wrong. But there’s so much more to being a winning NFL QB than just (usually) being good at throwing the ball to the open guys. It’s all the stuff that makes Tom Brady the GOAT, that makes you choose him over Kirk Cousins 100 times out of 100, even though their passing stats/production are remarkably similar. 

And it’s the reason Kirk was below .500 in Washington, while Alex was 11-5, despite playing with markedly less talented teams. One often left us saying “how did we possibly lose that game??” — and the other left us saying “how on earth did we win??”

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I feel like the people who think Kirk are good on here don't actually watch his games or film and just look at his stats.

Everytime i watch him, which is alot, it is so underwhelming and im positive his numbers match his play and are bad. Then i see what his stats are, they look good and don't match his play at all.

I can't be alone. There are a few other qbs i feel the same way about, but won't mention names.   Don't get me wrong, sometimes he makes great throws and throws that i sincerely believe are accidentally good.  Nothing on film pops to me as beyond being solid. 

Edited by Bearerofnews
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2 hours ago, squire12 said:

At what point is the mediocre team somewhat based on a mediocre QB?

Cook, Thielen,  (Diggs) Jefferson, Rudolph

Barr, Hunter, Griffen, Smith, Kendricks, Rhodes

Those teams in Minnesota have not lacked for talent is seems.

The defense hasn’t been good for two years now, it’s been well below average as of late. Hunter has barely played during that stretch. Rhodes mostly peaked by the time Cousins signed here in 18. Barr missed last year but he’s always been a bit of an enigma in terms of what you’d think he should be providing. OL has mostly been a problem, though it’s finally looking respectable.

I don’t see what’s so special about MN’s talent the past few seasons with Cousins. Perhaps offensive skill players, but the rest still seems fairly average. Look at the secondary and DL MN will be trotting out this weekend.  I don’t think Cousins is good enough on his own but that’s why I wouldn’t call him elite either. He’s certainly better than average or mediocre. 

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8 hours ago, e16bball said:

To really understand why he doesn’t win, I think you have to watch him. A lot. And even having watched every snap he took for years, I don’t necessarily understand the issue — but I do feel very strongly that it’s not just bad luck or coincidence or mediocrity around him. 

The thing with Kirk is that sometimes he looks fantastic. Accurate, great ball placement down the field, confident, efficient. Sometimes he even plays well with the pressure on, as on occasion I’ve seen him orchestrate big-time drives and even make plays in OT of a playoff game. 

But over time, you come to realize that where guys like Brady and Brees typically do all the little things that quietly (but meaningfully) put their teams in marginally better position to win — Kirk is largely the opposite. He so frequently does little things that put your team in better position to lose. Fail to protect the ball when being sacked. Take a sack to push you out of FG range (this one is a personal pet peeve, an absolutely staggering number of Cousins drives seem to end on the very fringe of FG range). Choose the easy checkdown bait instead of pushing the ball past the sticks on 3rd down when you need a spark. Somehow not check out of a run that was obviously doomed. Panic in a pressure spot and throw the ball up for grabs. Somehow finding the worst possible time to go cold or have one of his patented brain-dead moments.

I’ve seen him compared to Alex Smith in this thread, but from having watched a decent amount of both of them, they are polar opposites — at least in terms of the issue of “winning.” Alex had a fraction of the arm talent, but he did all those little things that maximize winning. He understood that short completion > throw away > sack > turnover. He was always playing the down and distance game, as well as the field position game, to make his offense’s life as easy as possible (and the opposing offense’s life as difficult as possible).

Alex played chess, in other words — Kirk plays checkers. He’s very good at checkers, don’t get me wrong. But there’s so much more to being a winning NFL QB than just (usually) being good at throwing the ball to the open guys. It’s all the stuff that makes Tom Brady the GOAT, that makes you choose him over Kirk Cousins 100 times out of 100, even though their passing stats/production are remarkably similar. 

And it’s the reason Kirk was below .500 in Washington, while Alex was 11-5, despite playing with markedly less talented teams. One often left us saying “how did we possibly lose that game??” — and the other left us saying “how on earth did we win??”

/thread

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16 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

He throws up a bunch of heaves and prayers that are bad passes and decisions that just tend to work out.

This just isn't true. Yes he makes a bone headed throw occasionally (most quarterbacks do), but a common complaint of Vikings fans is Kirk's conservative play and his tendency to check down (not fully his fault because of Zimmer's emphasis on protecting the ball and not taking risks). I think most Vikings fans would be happy to see him take more shots down field and let his receivers make plays.

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10 hours ago, e16bball said:

Choose the easy checkdown bait instead of pushing the ball past the sticks on 3rd down when you need a spark. Somehow not check out of a run that was obviously doomed.

Like other people have mentioned, a lot of these issues are from the Vikings conservative play calling forcing them into frequent 3rd and long situations that Zimmer doesn't like to take risks on. Zimmer also came out and essentially said the Kirk doesn't have full control to audible at the line, so again not fully his fault when that happens. I don't think Kirk is an elite QB, but he is definitely borderline top-10 and has put the Vikings in position to win every game this year only to be let down by things out of his control most of the time.

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1 minute ago, Buffalo Viking said:

Like other people have mentioned, a lot of these issues are from the Vikings conservative play calling forcing them into frequent 3rd and long situations that Zimmer doesn't like to take risks on. Zimmer also came out and essentially said the Kirk doesn't have full control to audible at the line, so again not fully his fault when that happens. I don't think Kirk is an elite QB, but he is definitely borderline top-10 and has put the Vikings in position to win every game this year only to be let down by things out of his control most of the time.

How common is this? I understand with a young QB or someone new to the team how they might be restricted, but this seems odd.

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I really do feel that Kirk has been horribly unlucky. Part of me hopes the Vikings trade him to an actually good team so he can finally win something significant and prove his haters wrong. This season alone he has led:

  • a game tying drive against Cincinnati to force OT only to lose off of a... questionable fumble call against Dalvin Cook
  • a potential game winning drive @ Arizona only for his kicker to miss a 37 yard FG as time expired
  • a game winning FG drive with only 37 seconds left after the Vikings coughed up a 10 point lead at home against the Lions 
  • a 75 yard game winning TD drive in OT on the road against Carolina. A game winning drive that was only required because the Vikings allowed Sam Darnold to drive 94 yards with 2:09 left in the 4th quarter to get a game tying TD and 2pt conversion.
  • a potential game winning FG drive in the 4th quarter against Dallas, only for the Vikings to allow a Cowboys TD with only 51 seconds left. This includes this very skill based play that Cooper Rush made to Amari Cooper that was probably more likely to end in an INT than a 33 yard gain, but here we are
  • a 75 yard game tying TD drive to force OT on the road against the Ravens, only to lose in OT (the Vikings did get the ball once off a miraculous INT so this is probably the weakest of these points, but Kirk only attempted 2 passes on the drive. One of which was a screen pass on 1st down and the other he had to essentially throw away due to the pressure on the play)

That's a record of 2-4 in games he led a potential GW driving in the 4th quarter/overtime just for his team to let him down in some way after. Yes, the 3 and out in OT @ Baltimore wasn't very clutch. But the GW drive against the Lions with 37 seconds left was extremely clutch. As was the walk off TD in Carolina.

If Kirk had the luxury of playing with a defense or kicking game like the Bills, Patriots, Packers, etc. the Vikings would have likely gone 4-2 in those games and would be 6-3. We would be talking about Kirk being in the MVP discussion. He only has 2 INTs on the season (the fewest of any QB to throw for more than 5 TDs this season). Add in fubles lost and Kirk still only has 4 turnovers over the season. And Kirk is 8th in the league in TDs on the season.

Edited by Nozizaki
moved games to chronological order
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