2021 GDT Week #12 Steelers Vs. Bengals

[MOSteelers56]

Bince's point about Bud is a pretty good one. Bush has been downright awful this year, no doubt. I'll let him finish out his contract before I give up on him, though. Sometimes it takes players longer. 

[43M]

3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Bince's point about Bud is a pretty good one. Bush has been downright awful this year, no doubt. I'll let him finish out his contract before I give up on him, though. Sometimes it takes players longer. 

Problem is, he is on the Jarvis Jones trajectory.   

Good players who take longer to develop usually show gradual improvements.   Bush has not only not shown improvement, but has regressed since his rookie year.

I dont have much faith of him developing into much more than maybe a solid backup caliber player.   The more he is on the field, the more he is exposed.  If you need elite players around you to make you look decent, you are a liability.

[Dcash4]

26 minutes ago, 43M said:

Good players who take longer to develop usually show gradual improvements.   Bush has not only not shown improvement, but has regressed since his rookie year

I’m not saying this isn’t true about the regression thing because …I mean, I do have eyes…

But off-ball players do general need 2-3 years (See his 1st round running mate Devin White who sucked for 7/8ths of last season and clicked in the playoffs, or Queen in Baltimore). Bush DID look like he progressed off an average rookie year in the first handful of games before injury last year. He then missed a ton of valuable time and even just flat out time around the team because of covid rules. 

That’s my long winded way of saying he did progress before the injury….but he has completely lost all that and then some coming back this year. I’d normally be a lot more optimistic about the overall situation to a rebound into the next year (sup Boswell?), but as bad as he has been I’m not sure what even a rebound looks like. 

[43M]

55 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I’m not saying this isn’t true about the regression thing because …I mean, I do have eyes…

But off-ball players do general need 2-3 years (See his 1st round running mate Devin White who sucked for 7/8ths of last season and clicked in the playoffs, or Queen in Baltimore). Bush DID look like he progressed off an average rookie year in the first handful of games before injury last year. He then missed a ton of valuable time and even just flat out time around the team because of covid rules. 

That’s my long winded way of saying he did progress before the injury….but he has completely lost all that and then some coming back this year. I’d normally be a lot more optimistic about the overall situation to a rebound into the next year (sup Boswell?), but as bad as he has been I’m not sure what even a rebound looks like. 

Fair points, but I wasnt a big fan of his coming out, so my optimism has always been limited.

I knew he would struggle getting off blocks in the NFL because he struggled in college to.   He reminds me of Jarvis Jones again in that way because Jones never seemingly cared about his strength or conditioning.

I have slightly more hope for Bush than I did for Jarvis Jones after 3 years, but I still think he has bust written all over him.

All Bush does is make me sad about Shazier, and what could've been if we never lost him.   Wouldve had Shazier and likely never wasted a 1st and 2nd on Bush.

In fairness, though...that 2019 first round was pretty rough all around.

[43M]

10 hours ago, warfelg said:

 

Bud was at least always a decent run defender.   He was largely called a bust because he sucked as a pass rusher early on.   After TJ came along, Bud looked much better.    We still have yet to see if Bud can be consistently good without Watt.

Devin Bush is young and could get better, but thats wishful thinking.   LBs with the issues he has dont usually blossom into much.

Maybe if we get a quality ILB next to him and a good run defending DLine, he could be a decent supporting ILB ala Larry Foote....but given we drafted him 10th overall and traded extra picks to move up for him, you expect him to be "the guy" and a defensive building block, as opposed to just a merely decent supporting player....and he may not even be that.

[CKSteeler]

15 hours ago, 43M said:

Ben is garbage now, so its not like he is doing Tomlin any favors.

 

Wait until you see the guy that Tomlin picks to replace him. And we'll see how he does in the stone age offense you all blame on Ben.

[warfelg]

Tomlin finally called the team out publicly.  And friends of mine that for years didn't like him because he kept it in house, are saying it was very "unprofessional" to call out Claypool and say former players are right.

[warfelg]

This quote bugs the crap outta me:

I’m sorry but Ben is not coming off well right now:

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by warfelg

[43M]

53 minutes ago, warfelg said:

This quote bugs the crap outta me:

I’m sorry but Ben is not coming off well right now:

 

I agree with him in the sense that we have gotten away from the "Steelers way" since Dan passed.   Thats undeniable.

However, its time to move on and stop trying to live in the past.  Living in the past is partly what has held us back over the years.

Ben is the first part of that past that needs to go.   Tomlin and Colbert arent far behind.

[43M]

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

Tomlin finally called the team out publicly.  And friends of mine that for years didn't like him because he kept it in house, are saying it was very "unprofessional" to call out Claypool and say former players are right.

It feels like he is starting to lose the team.

[warfelg]

7 minutes ago, 43M said:

It feels like he is starting to lose the team.

I wouldn’t say so much. I think it’s some divide in the locker room over the “living in the past”. Saying that they can’t play music because someone might walk in the room isn’t helpful. Not saying dump the old guys but I think that there needs to be some recognition that times are changing. Guys get up for playing in different ways. 
 

It’s in a way I agree with Claypool but in a way disagree. Playing music more won’t change things. But, stuff like “not music in the locker room” can turn off guys because there isn’t much feeling of a “turn off” mode. 
 

I can make this simple analogy to myself. I’m a golf pro. I play for scores. Meaning no drinking while playing. No music while playing. Always wearing pants while playing. I kinda forgot how to have fun while playing and now I struggle because I feel too much pressure to be perfect. A month ago I played a short course that plays music, had a drink, played barefoot in shorts with a hoodie on. I had fun. I remembered I am allowed to enjoy this sport I love. 
 

I think what Claypool was trying to say (poorly) is that they need to remember why they fell in love with football and if that means playing music to get guys loose and less uptight, they need to try it. 

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Guys get up for playing in different ways. 

This has always just been my theory on Tomlin, but I have always thought he had one way to get guys ready to play.....

He doesn't.

....and I don't really mean that as a bad thing

Everything he has ever said and his attitude about things is that these guys are men and they will do their jobs and do it at a necessary level of effort because it's their jobs -- therefore there is an expectation to do it. He doesn't need to put on a skirt and cheerlead in the locker room to have guys who are paid money to go to work. 

We probably all have had two different kinds of bosses - ones that micromanage and ones that are hands-off and allow you to do the job you were hired to do. Personally, I have had multiple of each. I had one so crushingly hands on you hated your job...but she got results and you knew everything about the company and did your jobs well. I also had one that was so hands-off he had no clue what was actually going on inside your market and was of no help when things went sideways. 

IMO, that's why it's easy to see why we play down to competition over the years and why we always played up in big games. Players, especially 20some year olds, are going to naturally overlook lesser opponents and get excited/prepare for a harder assignment. 

I think this is also why players speak so highly of Tomlin. People like the hands-off approach. He really allows guys to try to work through their struggles. But I do think this is also the downside of it as he has never flipped a switch and said I gotta do something different. 

It wouldn't surprise me if Tomlin never mentioned Tyler Boyd's comments about quitting to the team...he has continually dismissed it in public. Again, just my theory...but I think your effort and your motivation are on you inside that locker room. He's not gonna come pump you up to make you go out and do your job. 

We are not, and have not been, a good X's and O's team for some time. Motivation and effort cannnnnnnot be a question.....especially with a CEO styled head coach. He needs to find new ways to get to guys, but I just think this is who he is and I don't know that I see that changing. 

[warfelg]

What do you all think? Bad play design? Poor route running? Poor coaching of the concept? Or players just not in the right place? Or players not running the right routes? 
 

Personally I think it’s a poor route running combined with bad play design. It looks like it’s supposed to be a rub route with DJ running an inside curl with Pat running a flat out. 
 

DJ allows his man to force him wide, which puts himself into Pats break. Pat gets a little too deep before his break. But the action is way to close together to work. One defensive player can account for both at the line and he’s playing zone. DJ should be lined up wider and the action needs to happen deeper to force the DB/LB to commit to one player before breaking. 

[jebrick]

On 12/2/2021 at 8:09 AM, warfelg said:

What do you all think? Bad play design? Poor route running? Poor coaching of the concept? Or players just not in the right place? Or players not running the right routes? 
 

Personally I think it’s a poor route running combined with bad play design. It looks like it’s supposed to be a rub route with DJ running an inside curl with Pat running a flat out. 
 

DJ allows his man to force him wide, which puts himself into Pats break. Pat gets a little too deep before his break. But the action is way to close together to work. One defensive player can account for both at the line and he’s playing zone. DJ should be lined up wider and the action needs to happen deeper to force the DB/LB to commit to one player before breaking. 

For the running plays, that is play design and coaching.  The passing plays could be everything.  Canada has stated that he has not changed any of the passing plays ( assuming it is what Ben wanted).  The pass plays just suck and teams know them.  There are plays that the Cinn defenders do not move much because they know what is coming.  The pass plays rely on the receivers beating their man rather than scheming player open.