Should we start Mariota?

[ronjon1990]

11 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I think the contrasting styles will show who responds to different styles.  I believe Carr is the better QB but he might not be for this system or these players.  I personally think changing the QB is far easier than improving 6 other players around him.

That's pretty much where I'm at with it. 

Our O-line sucks for long stretches in the game, particularly the right side. Carr isn't what I would consider a mobile QB, and we're seeing him having to roll out quite a bit, particularly to his blind side, meaning he's also having to turn back around to make a decent throw. 

We have virtually no run game with our RBs to take any pressure off of the pass game. 

We find ourselves in a lot of 3rd and long's thanks to holding calls. 

In the RZ, our lack of running ability further complicates matters. 

We lack playmakers. Maybe "lack" is a bit unfair because we have guys on the roster like Waller, Renfrow, and Moreau. But we can't just target Waller all day. He's being schemed for. We inexplicably refuse to use Moreau. Renfrow is still somewhat limited. 

Iffy blocking, long downs, non-existent run game, lack of WRs....none of that plays to Carr's strengths, but amplifies his weaknesses. We get glimpses (that 2nd half TD drive was a thing of beauty) but we don't have the parts to consistently do that, between injuries, new starters, and missing pieces. 

Mariota isn't as good of a passer. But he's far more mobile and could force at least some respect for the run game, opening up the pass game a bit more. He's better suited to ad-libbing a play where blocking starts to break down, and he's fast enough to not essentially lose the right side of the field once pressure mounts. It also makes something like 3rd and 15 (thanks in advance, Leatherwood) more doable as defenses would have to account for the QB run instead of just bracketing the hell out of the intermediate routes and forcing either a checkdown or some ridiculously long pass and prayer. 

In a traditional, functional offense, I go with Carr 7 days a week. When things click, he's good and the offense looks unstoppable. But things aren't clicking and our offensive personnel are at the bare minimum of being functional. So, that being said, see if Mariota's skill set works better. 

To your point about the 6 other guys, spot on. I mean, factoring in Ingold, we're down 7 starters from what we had last year/anticipated for this year. We can't just change every single other player on offense- heck we don't even have a replacement for most of them. 4 returning starters, and even at that, I question Jacobs' ability as a starting RB anyway. It's not a personnel fix that can be made any time soon. But inserting Mariota's contrasting skill set might just be enough of a band aid for the time being. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

That's pretty much where I'm at with it. 

Our O-line sucks for long stretches in the game, particularly the right side. Carr isn't what I would consider a mobile QB, and we're seeing him having to roll out quite a bit, particularly to his blind side, meaning he's also having to turn back around to make a decent throw. 

We have virtually no run game with our RBs to take any pressure off of the pass game. 

We find ourselves in a lot of 3rd and long's thanks to holding calls. 

In the RZ, our lack of running ability further complicates matters. 

We lack playmakers. Maybe "lack" is a bit unfair because we have guys on the roster like Waller, Renfrow, and Moreau. But we can't just target Waller all day. He's being schemed for. We inexplicably refuse to use Moreau. Renfrow is still somewhat limited. 

Iffy blocking, long downs, non-existent run game, lack of WRs....none of that plays to Carr's strengths, but amplifies his weaknesses. We get glimpses (that 2nd half TD drive was a thing of beauty) but we don't have the parts to consistently do that, between injuries, new starters, and missing pieces. 

Mariota isn't as good of a passer. But he's far more mobile and could force at least some respect for the run game, opening up the pass game a bit more. He's better suited to ad-libbing a play where blocking starts to break down, and he's fast enough to not essentially lose the right side of the field once pressure mounts. It also makes something like 3rd and 15 (thanks in advance, Leatherwood) more doable as defenses would have to account for the QB run instead of just bracketing the hell out of the intermediate routes and forcing either a checkdown or some ridiculously long pass and prayer. 

In a traditional, functional offense, I go with Carr 7 days a week. When things click, he's good and the offense looks unstoppable. But things aren't clicking and our offensive personnel are at the bare minimum of being functional. So, that being said, see if Mariota's skill set works better. 

To your point about the 6 other guys, spot on. I mean, factoring in Ingold, we're down 7 starters from what we had last year/anticipated for this year. We can't just change every single other player on offense- heck we don't even have a replacement for most of them. 4 returning starters, and even at that, I question Jacobs' ability as a starting RB anyway. It's not a personnel fix that can be made any time soon. But inserting Mariota's contrasting skill set might just be enough of a band aid for the time being. 

I actually see this point. I could definitely see Mariota providing a spark early on it's just annoying to bench Carr when you know that Mariota is not a long-term option. 

[ronjon1990]

36 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I actually see this point. I could definitely see Mariota providing a spark early on it's just annoying to bench Carr when you know that Mariota is not a long-term option. 

Oh I find it infuriating that we finally had a QB worth keeping longer than 4 or 5 years and wasn't absolutely horrid on the field after searching for even bottom tier competency at the position for the better part of a decade and for 8 ******* years failed to give him a better WR group than Old Crabtree and Drops Cooper and year after year of laughable RB situations like an unretired Lynch, MJD, and now a 3 yard plodder, all while gutting the O-line in one fell swoop. 

Until Carr goes elsewhere and flops, I will absolutely maintain that this franchise failed a rare opportunity to build around a top 10 QB that didn't cost us a first round pick. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by ronjon1990

[MrOaktown_56]

25 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Oh I find it infuriating that we finally had a QB worth keeping longer than 4 or 5 years and wasn't absolutely horrid on the field after searching for even bottom tier competency at the position for the better part of a decade and for 8 ******* years failed to give him a better WR group than Old Crabtree and Drops Cooper and year after year of laughable RB situations like an unretired Lunch, MJD, and now a 3 yard plodder, all while gutting the O-line in one fell swoop. 

Until Carr goes elsewhere and flops, I will absolutely maintain that this franchise failed a rare opportunity to build around a top 10 QB that didn't cost us a first round pick. 

1000% agree

[big_palooka]

57 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Oh I find it infuriating that we finally had a QB worth keeping longer than 4 or 5 years and wasn't absolutely horrid on the field after searching for even bottom tier competency at the position for the better part of a decade and for 8 ******* years failed to give him a better WR group than Old Crabtree and Drops Cooper and year after year of laughable RB situations like an unretired Lynch, MJD, and now a 3 yard plodder, all while gutting the O-line in one fell swoop. 

Until Carr goes elsewhere and flops, I will absolutely maintain that this franchise failed a rare opportunity to build around a top 10 QB that didn't cost us a first round pick. 

This sentiment is why some Raider fans overrate him. I liked Carr, hell I wanted him in round 1 in 2014. Was elated to get him. But the biggest problems he had in college have not gone away in 8 years. 

There is only so much you can build around a QB who doesn't like pressure. KC has been taunting him since 2016 on in. Give him pressure, he gets happy feet and breaks down mechanically. starts trying to throw with just his upper body off his back foot, etc.

Gruden I feel knew this to some degree, went all out on Oline to keep him comfortable. For years, he's had among the best pass blocking Olines.   

[drfrey13]

57 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Oh I find it infuriating that we finally had a QB worth keeping longer than 4 or 5 years and wasn't absolutely horrid on the field after searching for even bottom tier competency at the position for the better part of a decade and for 8 ******* years failed to give him a better WR group than Old Crabtree and Drops Cooper and year after year of laughable RB situations like an unretired Lunch, MJD, and now a 3 yard plodder, all while gutting the O-line in one fell swoop. 

Until Carr goes elsewhere and flops, I will absolutely maintain that this franchise failed a rare opportunity to build around a top 10 QB that didn't cost us a first round pick. 

The franchise itself is the most frustrating aspect by far.  We have wasted so much cap space and draft capital.  We have some decent players but play them out of position sometimes.  We have other players that we choose not to use.  We surround the players with incompetent coaches.  We have a brand new stadium and facilities to go with no state income tax but we make so many stupid mistakes we will still have to overpay for FAs.  Top to bottom this team is infuriating.  Watch them screw it up further by making GB the head coach.  And the worst part of it all is that the majority of knowledgeable fans see the issues before the team.

[Devilshark69]

I’ve been a carr supporter, yes. But I always recognized his flaws, (happy feet, feeling pressure). I really don’t care who starts at this point, the truth is I feel like this team is always just waiting to do the el foldo. Even when carr plays good we have bonehead penalties, or stuff like deshauns fumble happens.  And btw, carr has already made it clear we will get no trade value from him. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if he retired and became “a man of the cloth”.....we’ve speculated on this before. So yeah, work mariota some more, or start him if need be. But that WONT fix our o-line or our skill positions.

[drfrey13]

36 minutes ago, Devilshark69 said:

I’ve been a carr supporter, yes. But I always recognized his flaws, (happy feet, feeling pressure). I really don’t care who starts at this point, the truth is I feel like this team is always just waiting to do the el foldo. Even when carr plays good we have bonehead penalties, or stuff like deshauns fumble happens.  And btw, carr has already made it clear we will get no trade value from him. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if he retired and became “a man of the cloth”.....we’ve speculated on this before. So yeah, work mariota some more, or start him if need be. But that WONT fix our o-line or our skill positions.

I highly doubt he quits if he is not on this team.  That is the type of hyperbolic statement that he makes that drives me nuts about him as a leader.  I understand what he means but he could get his point across in a better fashion.  Even if he is not motivated by money and truly would just like to help people he could help a lot more by playing football and donating his money even if he is not on the Raiders.  I wonder how much of his salary he donates now?  I am going to laugh if we do not resign him and he goes to the highest bidder after.

[Devilshark69]

Well several of us speculated on this long before he made that statement. And maintaining that stance (whether he believes it or not,) will NOT enhance his trade value, which is so-so anyway. So there’s that. Lol  

[Devilshark69]

Fwiw, I don’t care so much about who the qb is as I do about getting rid of this losing culture, here we go again, curse or whatever you wanna call it sh*t!!! Hell, even in 2016 we couldn’t catch a break. (We did, but wrong kind of break) 

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, Devilshark69 said:

Fwiw, I don’t care so much about who the qb is as I do about getting rid of this losing culture, here we go again, curse or whatever you wanna call it sh*t!!! Hell, even in 2016 we couldn’t catch a break. (We did, but wrong kind of break) 

This honestly if carr was balling this wouldn’t even be an issue but he’s not and we have to adjust. Can’t sacrifice the whole team for one guy. Give carr a week off he’s been under hella stress and sometimes sitting a watching will rekindle the fire. The other guys are ready honestly carr is holding us back. If mm is so garbage what are people so afraid of. Give him a shot to fail then let’s move on

[IdigtheRaiders!]

2 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

This honestly if carr was balling this wouldn’t even be an issue but he’s not and we have to adjust. Can’t sacrifice the whole team for one guy. Give carr a week off he’s been under hella stress and sometimes sitting a watching will rekindle the fire. The other guys are ready honestly carr is holding us back. If mm is so garbage what are people so afraid of. Give him a shot to fail then let’s move on

     Agreed, worth a shot.

[NYRaider]

12 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

That's pretty much where I'm at with it. 

Our O-line sucks for long stretches in the game, particularly the right side. Carr isn't what I would consider a mobile QB, and we're seeing him having to roll out quite a bit, particularly to his blind side, meaning he's also having to turn back around to make a decent throw. 

We have virtually no run game with our RBs to take any pressure off of the pass game. 

We find ourselves in a lot of 3rd and long's thanks to holding calls. 

In the RZ, our lack of running ability further complicates matters. 

We lack playmakers. Maybe "lack" is a bit unfair because we have guys on the roster like Waller, Renfrow, and Moreau. But we can't just target Waller all day. He's being schemed for. We inexplicably refuse to use Moreau. Renfrow is still somewhat limited. 

Iffy blocking, long downs, non-existent run game, lack of WRs....none of that plays to Carr's strengths, but amplifies his weaknesses. We get glimpses (that 2nd half TD drive was a thing of beauty) but we don't have the parts to consistently do that, between injuries, new starters, and missing pieces. 

Mariota isn't as good of a passer. But he's far more mobile and could force at least some respect for the run game, opening up the pass game a bit more. He's better suited to ad-libbing a play where blocking starts to break down, and he's fast enough to not essentially lose the right side of the field once pressure mounts. It also makes something like 3rd and 15 (thanks in advance, Leatherwood) more doable as defenses would have to account for the QB run instead of just bracketing the hell out of the intermediate routes and forcing either a checkdown or some ridiculously long pass and prayer. 

In a traditional, functional offense, I go with Carr 7 days a week. When things click, he's good and the offense looks unstoppable. But things aren't clicking and our offensive personnel are at the bare minimum of being functional. So, that being said, see if Mariota's skill set works better. 

To your point about the 6 other guys, spot on. I mean, factoring in Ingold, we're down 7 starters from what we had last year/anticipated for this year. We can't just change every single other player on offense- heck we don't even have a replacement for most of them. 4 returning starters, and even at that, I question Jacobs' ability as a starting RB anyway. It's not a personnel fix that can be made any time soon. But inserting Mariota's contrasting skill set might just be enough of a band aid for the time being. 

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

This honestly if carr was balling this wouldn’t even be an issue but he’s not and we have to adjust. Can’t sacrifice the whole team for one guy. Give carr a week off he’s been under hella stress and sometimes sitting a watching will rekindle the fire. The other guys are ready honestly carr is holding us back. If mm is so garbage what are people so afraid of. Give him a shot to fail then let’s move on

Vinny, one of the beat writers that covers the team in Vegas, said that after Carr saw Mariota ball out last season he came back immediately from his "injury" and played better because he knew his job was in jeopardy. 

[NYRaider]

9 hours ago, big_palooka said:

There is only so much you can build around a QB who doesn't like pressure. KC has been taunting him since 2016 on in. Give him pressure, he gets happy feet and breaks down mechanically. starts trying to throw with just his upper body off his back foot, etc.

His college scouting report...

Quote

 

Footwork needs improvement; he often retreats from pressure and throws off his back foot. Needs to step into his throws more consistently.

Poor decision-making under duress.

Average pocket presence with wavering poise and unrefined pocket movement.

Stares down his intended target. He needs to improve eye discipline.

Too often appears to be flustered by pressure. Can be quick to flee the pocket.

Inconsistent mechanics, has a tendency to lock his lower half and throw with his arm alone.

Struggles when his receivers’ routes are disrupted.

Often late to recognize the blitz.

Operated almost exclusively out of shotgun with four or five receiver sets.

Not an anticipatory thrower.

Will not hurt defenses on the ground. He has enough mobility to get by but is not much of a running threat.

Hangs his receivers out to dry at times.

Does not appear to see the field very well, throwing into double-teams occasionally.

Struggled with top competition. College career ended on a lousy note as he was erratic vs. USC in the Las Vegas Bowl.