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Let's Talk GM/Ryan Pace


soulman

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2 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

Bountygate was disgraceful.

Agreed. However, teams had been doing that for years...and the Saints just got sloppy enough to get caught. 

Make of that what you will. I don't see that as any sort of vindication of Payton (just because another guy robs a bank, doesn't make it fine for me to do it)...but Meyer's exploits at OSU were real high-caliber human scum shenanigans. 

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4 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

The McDaniels/Fields argument is a silly one, and I'm guessing you probably know that. McDaniels has also already failed as a head coach. GB sat Rodgers for a long time so they could break his bad habits and fix his throwing motion. Rodgers also wasn't a really high pick, and the Packers already had a good QB--even though he was threatening to retire about every other week. 

It’s not a silly argument at all. Failures by Mangini or Crennel or BOB or whoever else are wholly irrelevant to whether or not McDaniels will succeed. They’re different people who do things different ways under different circumstances with different personnel, same as how failures by Joey Harrington and Akili Smith as professionals were wholly unrelated to whether or not Rodgers would succeed, same as Fields following professional failures by Troy Smith and JT Barrett and Dwayne Haskins. There’s no causal connection between those things. If you buy a Chevy and it turns out to be a POS that doesn’t mean that if I buy the same model Chevy from the same place that mine will also be a POS. They’re different cars. 

McDaniels’ own failures, however, are relevant. Hence my point 1a. 

4 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Now you're concocting stories and hunches to justify your position. That doesn't mean that you are wrong about any of that, necessarily. It could be that you are 100% right...but there's only one way to find out. 

McDaniels name keeps coming up in connection with the job, so you may well get your wish. 

Then, we all pray to the football gods that I am dead wrong about Josh McDaniels. 

Is it really well outside the norm to suggest that someone who failed at something in a super humbling way might have learned from it? Or that someone might have matured over a 12-year period? Yes, it’s a hunch, but far from one that’s totally out of nowhere. I’m 39 years old - there’s no way in hell I’d do some things the same way now that I did them when I was 27, especially if they went spectacularly wrong when I did them back then. I think a really compelling argument can be made to suggest that McDaniels’ failures in Denver might be a good thing for whatever team gives him his next HC opportunity, because he’s already made them.

Now, so it’s clear, my desire for McDaniels as our HC is an endorsement for him only in that capacity. I do not want him also as the de facto GM with personnel control, and if that’s a must have for him then I’d rather he be HC elsewhere. 

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21 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

It’s not a silly argument at all. Failures by Mangini or Crennel or BOB or whoever else are wholly irrelevant to whether or not McDaniels will succeed. They’re different people who do things different ways under different circumstances with different personnel, same as how failures by Joey Harrington and Akili Smith as professionals were wholly unrelated to whether or not Rodgers would succeed, same as Fields following professional failures by Troy Smith and JT Barrett and Dwayne Haskins. There’s no causal connection between those things. If you buy a Chevy and it turns out to be a POS that doesn’t mean that if I buy the same model Chevy from the same place that mine will also be a POS. They’re different cars. 

McDaniels’ own failures, however, are relevant. Hence my point 1a. 

Is it really well outside the norm to suggest that someone who failed at something in a super humbling way might have learned from it? Or that someone might have matured over a 12-year period? Yes, it’s a hunch, but far from one that’s totally out of nowhere. I’m 39 years old *- there’s no way in hell I’d do some things the same way now that I did them when I was 27, especially if they went spectacularly wrong when I did them back then. I think a really compelling argument can be made to suggest that McDaniels’ failures in Denver might be a good thing for whatever team gives him his next HC opportunity, because he’s already made them.

Now, so it’s clear, my desire for McDaniels as our HC is an endorsement for him only in that capacity. I do not want him also as the de facto GM with personnel control, and if that’s a must have for him then I’d rather he be HC elsewhere. 

I have no problem with your reasons for liking McDs, but would also argue that it's quite a stretch to suggest that BECAUSE he flamed out/quit on Denver, STL and Indy that he won't make the same mistakes.  It CAN happen that people learn from their mistakes, but I've found that way more often they just make the same mistakes in new ways.  Nothing puts my mind on red alert more than when I have a problem with a company or person professionally, bring it up, and they acknowledge it, apologize for it, but when you ask them to tell why it can't happen again there's nothing there. We can like his system, and want a tough guy, but is it crazy to say that his success has come in a place where he is not the guy in charge and responsible for the team and culture?  Literally the ONLY thing that makes me curious about this guy is that so many of you really seem to like him. 

*I'm 41, and I am very much doing many of the same dumb things I did when I was 21

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4 hours ago, RunningVaccs said:

I have no problem with your reasons for liking McDs, but would also argue that it's quite a stretch to suggest that BECAUSE he flamed out/quit on Denver, STL and Indy that he won't make the same mistakes.  It CAN happen that people learn from their mistakes, but I've found that way more often they just make the same mistakes in new ways.

I can certainly concede that he may make the same mistakes again. That’s the risk in the move. I’ve never said it wouldn’t be risky to hire him - only that I don’t think it’s any more risky than any of the other candidates. The upside in the move though if he’s indeed not the brash punk he was when he was 32 anymore is tremendous, and comes with a much longer and diverse track record for success working not only with Brady but also Cassel, Garoppolo, Brissett, and even getting something resembling a competent, functioning offense out of the corpse of Cam Newton last year. Hell, his work with Matt Cassel in 2008 after Brady went down with an ACL in week 1 was maybe the biggest reason why he got the Denver job in the first place. Of all the coaching candidates on our list I’m the most confident that McDaniels can take what we have and make it work efficiently and effectively even if we don’t have top flight skill position talent right away. Plus, he’ll understand the value of building a strong OL. 

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22 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Now, so it’s clear, my desire for McDaniels as our HC is an endorsement for him only in that capacity. I do not want him also as the de facto GM with personnel control, and if that’s a must have for him then I’d rather he be HC elsewhere. 

I wonder if McDaniels would demand that? I haven't read anything that points either way. 

16 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

The upside in the move though if he’s indeed not the brash punk he was when he was 32 anymore is tremendous, and comes with a much longer and diverse track record for success working not only with Brady but also Cassel, Garoppolo, Brissett, and even getting something resembling a competent, functioning offense out of the corpse of Cam Newton last year.

That was pretty impressive, to be sure. 

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48 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

I wonder if McDaniels would demand [personnel control]? I haven't read anything that points either way

Neither have I, and I’m not sure. It was one of his biggest shortcomings in Denver. I’d expect he’d want to come into a situation where he and the GM already have some kind of relationship if at all possible, but that’s probably any candidate. 

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