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Marcus Williams is a bad enough tackler that we shouldn't re-sign him


Dome

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All season long he's been backpedalling and hesitating to avoid contact. He's scared to tackle. He's broken. Last night he put it on display in probably the worst tackling attempt I've seen from a member of this team, maybe ever in a primetime game, darkhorse for.... maybe worst ever?

If we want him we're gonna have to pay him top FS money, and he just isn't worth that. Let someone else pay him that.

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12 hours ago, Dome said:

Marcus Williams is broken.

He's missed enough tackles that he knows he's a bad tackler and he's deep, deep, deep in his own head at this point. He doesn't need better defensive coaching, he needs a better therapist.

I mean look what he did last night. Have you EVER seen a display like that in an NFL game? Even Antonio Cromartie's infamous "Don't want none of that" non-tackle against the Jets in the 2009 Playoff showed Cro put himself in a position where he could have made a play, Williams didn't do that.

He would rather get burned for a touchdown than even risk missing another tackle.

He's ALWAYS backpedaling to avoid making a tackle on his own or hesitating for so long the ball carrier just runs right past him. He lowers his head and lunges, constantly. He has no idea what he's doing.

 

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I very much disagree. I couldn't disagree more. The Pollard tackle was terrible, but at the end of the day he's only pushing Pollard out at the 5-10 yard line anyway and the Cowboys likely score... The amount of plays he prevents from happening with his coverage abilities far outweighs the runs that make it through our front 7 and past everyone but Williams.

Marcus Williams is arguably the best deep coverage safety in the league, some of the plays he prevented in the Eagles game were absolutely unbelievable. I know the wound is fresh, and Williams has always been a bad tackler but at the end of the day...If your FS is constantly making solo tackles, you probably have bigger issues. We can NOT let Williams leave, the defense would take a huge step backwards.

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Very good deep coverage FS. But boy...he has to be one of the worst tacklers in the league. I fear that if our front 7 wasn't so good, it would really expose him and people would be wondering why we spent all that money (even more than they are now). If anything they are covering up his deficits, so he reveals them ever so often. But boy...he has some of the most embarrassing tackling I've ever seen. The Minnesota Miracle...biggest individual choke job in NFL history. I'm probably never going to get over that. I simply don't trust him...and for good reason.

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Is he that bad at tackling though? The Pollard play was bad I grant you -- looks like he thought he had more space to work with than he actually did. Williams is typically playing deep high safety, as in the last line of defense, as in the best case scenario is he limits a Huge play to just a Big play. His role means he has to be, without exaggeration, the least aggressive tackler on the defense.

It's true he's been doing this "slow play" toward the sideline a lot this season (or maybe I only just started to notice it this season) but as far as risk/reward propositions go, I think it's fair way to play the ball carrier. It does look bad when he misjudges how much field he has to work with though.

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10 minutes ago, Fray32 said:

Is he that bad at tackling though? The Pollard play was bad I grant you -- looks like he thought he had more space to work with than he actually did. Williams is typically playing deep high safety, as in the last line of defense, as in the best case scenario is he limits a Huge play to just a Big play. His role means he has to be, without exaggeration, the least aggressive tackler on the defense.

It's true he's been doing this "slow play" toward the sideline a lot this season (or maybe I only just started to notice it this season) but as far as risk/reward propositions go, I think it's fair way to play the ball carrier. It does look bad when he misjudges how much field he has to work with though.

He's not. He for sure took a bad angle on the Pollard play but I've seen Williams make plenty of tackles. It also still doesn't outweigh the fact that he's one of the best coverage safeties in the league. 

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I think Williams is playing with the idea of he can't miss the tackle and would rather give up more yards than give up a guaranteed touchdown if he misses the tackle.  I mean maybe if more people were coming up closer behind Pollard he might've actually stepped up to slow Pollard down needing to change directions for the cutback, but literally on both of those long runs he gave up a lot of yards/touchdown on, no one was even close to catching up and he was the last person.  He either tries to guarantee an out of bounds or 95% of the chance misses a chance to tackle on a cutback by Pollard and then give up a touchdown.

Though definitely at the time I was watching it I was upset by him not being more aggressive.  If the team is going to play like that, I'd rather him miss an aggressive tackle and give up a TD than give up an additional 10-20 yards that likely leads to a TD anyways.

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3 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

I very much disagree. I couldn't disagree more. The Pollard tackle was terrible, but at the end of the day he's only pushing Pollard out at the 5-10 yard line anyway and the Cowboys likely score... The amount of plays he prevents from happening with his coverage abilities far outweighs the runs that make it through our front 7 and past everyone but Williams.

Marcus Williams is arguably the best deep coverage safety in the league, some of the plays he prevented in the Eagles game were absolutely unbelievable. I know the wound is fresh, and Williams has always been a bad tackler but at the end of the day...If your FS is constantly making solo tackles, you probably have bigger issues. We can NOT let Williams leave, the defense would take a huge step backwards.

 

19 minutes ago, Fray32 said:

Is he that bad at tackling though? The Pollard play was bad I grant you -- looks like he thought he had more space to work with than he actually did. Williams is typically playing deep high safety, as in the last line of defense, as in the best case scenario is he limits a Huge play to just a Big play. His role means he has to be, without exaggeration, the least aggressive tackler on the defense.

It's true he's been doing this "slow play" toward the sideline a lot this season (or maybe I only just started to notice it this season) but as far as risk/reward propositions go, I think it's fair way to play the ball carrier. It does look bad when he misjudges how much field he has to work with though.

 

7 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

He's not. He for sure took a bad angle on the Pollard play but I've seen Williams make plenty of tackles. It also still doesn't outweigh the fact that he's one of the best coverage safeties in the league. 


 @MookieMonstah

 

just a couple hours apart your saying “Williams has always been a bad tackler” to saying “he’s not” when asked if he’s a bad tackler

pick a side so we can debate 😂

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Dome said:

 

 


 @MookieMonstah

 

just a couple hours apart your saying “Williams has always been a bad tackler” to saying “he’s not” when asked if he’s a bad tackler

pick a side so we can debate 😂

 

 

 

For sure a slip up there. I don't think he's as horrific as is being stated here. People emotional after a terrible angle last night and another loss. He's not a great tackle, but he's also been a willing tackler most of the time. Even if he was the worst tackler in the league...You aren't paying your FS to stop the run. He's the commander of the secondary and is one of the best coverage guys in the league. Dennis Allen has stated that fans don't understand how much a great FS changes your defense, think of how atrocious our secondary was pre Lattimore+Williams. I am in NO rush to return to those days and lose either.

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42 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

For sure a slip up there. I don't think he's as horrific as is being stated here. People emotional after a terrible angle last night and another loss. He's not a great tackle, but he's also been a willing tackler most of the time. Even if he was the worst tackler in the league...You aren't paying your FS to stop the run. He's the commander of the secondary and is one of the best coverage guys in the league. Dennis Allen has stated that fans don't understand how much a great FS changes your defense, think of how atrocious our secondary was pre Lattimore+Williams. I am in NO rush to return to those days and lose either.

So you’re willing to pay him as the best FS in the league despite seemingly acknowledging he’s a liability against the run?

that’s not good enough for me to want him at what he’s gonna cost, but people will disagree on value. As long as we aren’t trying to argue that his tackling isn’t a huge glaring issue with his game.

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2 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

Very good deep coverage FS. But boy...he has to be one of the worst tacklers in the league. I fear that if our front 7 wasn't so good, it would really expose him and people would be wondering why we spent all that money (even more than they are now). If anything they are covering up his deficits, so he reveals them ever so often. But boy...he has some of the most embarrassing tackling I've ever seen. The Minnesota Miracle...biggest individual choke job in NFL history. I'm probably never going to get over that. I simply don't trust him...and for good reason.

The DK play this year too… he absolutely embarrassed himself. He’s good for a laughable miss most games.

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5 hours ago, Dome said:

So you’re willing to pay him as the best FS in the league despite seemingly acknowledging he’s a liability against the run?

that’s not good enough for me to want him at what he’s gonna cost, but people will disagree on value. As long as we aren’t trying to argue that his tackling isn’t a huge glaring issue with his game.

Absolutely. You don’t pay a FS to stop the run. He’s the best in the league at what he does IMO. I think people are to quick to forget the dark ages of the Saints secondary. 

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2 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

Absolutely. You don’t pay a FS to stop the run.

You don't pay a QB for his running ability either, but you still won't get off Taysom's jock lol ;) 

8 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

Dennis Allen has stated that fans don't understand how much a great FS changes your defense

And Sean Payton compared Taysom Hill to Steve Young. Coaches talk up their guys, sometimes it's hot air.

If Williams walks and we spend that money on another pass rusher and our defense still plays opportunistic and nasty like they have been, Dennis Allen will talk about how much a pass rush changes your defense.

You don't pay big bucks for a FS to stop the run, we agree there.

I'm simply including a caveat that says "You don't pay big bucks to a FS to stop the run..... but I also wouldn't pay top dollar for a FS who was a liability anywhere."

Marcus Williams is one of the best in the game when the ball is in the air.

He is one of the worst in the game when the ball has reached the hands of a receiver or a RB has reached him. 

When it's his job to be the "safety" rather than "the ballhawk" he is no longer one of the best in the league at what he does and, without hyperbole, becomes mediocre at absolute best.

To be clear, I'm not talking strictly about his rushing defense, but about his tackling in general... specifically in the open field. He looked like a STer trying to tackle DK Metcalf on his TD score if you want another recent example. I'm sure I could find one in every game, him just looking foolish lol (please don't show me his missed tackle stats, I've seen them. I've also seen him play. There are examples almost every game where he wasn't included in a "missed tackle" opportunity because he was so out of position he couldn't attempt a tackle)

He faces more ball carriers after receptions than he does on rushing plays so that's a much bigger concern than his rushing defense.

If you get embarrassed by other players multiple times in very recent memory (Diggs, Kittle, DK, Pollard), you're not worth elite money by definition. To me that's obvious, others will disagree. 

 

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He’s the best in the league at what he does IMO.

Ballhawking, yes.

Being a true safety, no. He's an incomplete player IMO.

 

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I think people are to quick to forget the dark ages of the Saints secondary. 

Our talented secondary has put up some absolute stinkers, but admittedly are significantly better than the past you're referring to.

Lattimore has elite talent but he isn't consistent and Williams is a straight up liability against the run and YAC.

We have a lot of potential with CJGJ and Adebo to round things out, but Jenkins is in the twilight of his career and in a couple more years you won't have Cam Jordan or DeMario Davis stuffing the run like it's nothing. Davenport isn't reliable, Payton Turner is still a complete unknown, Cam Jordan is a run stuffing ultra-savvy vet, but he's not affecting the passer much these days compared to what we're used to.

So you're gonna put all this money into a ballhawking FS, then disrupt the front-7 that's hiding his biggest weakness? With no way to fix it since the money you'd need to do that is tied up in the FS ?

Williams will continue to be exposed as a liability throughout his career. We don't have to agree, but that's my stance. Doesn't mean he's not good or even great at one specific role, but I wouldn't pay him more than other defensive playmakers you could find for the same price.

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9 hours ago, Fray32 said:

Is he that bad at tackling though?

Yes. 

9 hours ago, Fray32 said:

The Pollard play was bad I grant you -- looks like he thought he had more space to work with than he actually did.

I guess that's my point. I don't want to pay like $16-17m per year to a FS who, as a 5th year vet, just forgets how much room he has as the last line of defense. 

Quote

Williams is typically playing deep high safety, as in the last line of defense, as in the best case scenario is he limits a Huge play to just a Big play. His role means he has to be, without exaggeration, the least aggressive tackler on the defense.

Sure. I get that.... When you see a chance to play it safe and prevent the TD, do it.

But the "least aggressive tackler" needs to be much better than this:

"Diggs! Sideline! Touchdown!" *trigger warning*

"George Kittle! Taking On Everybody!" *graphic content*

"DK Metcalf is in the game! And he's down the sideline!" *METCALF! SIDELINE! TOUCHDOWN! VOMIT!*

"Allen slings it in, and TO THE GOALLINE IS KNOX!" *Now featuring t-rex arms!*

"Tony Pollard! Jets are on! Touchdown Dallas!" *Present day! we made it!*

NOT elite, doesn't deserve elite money IMO.

 

 

 

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