Pass me that wrench: Fixing the D in 2022

[wcblack34]

Good lord. Can we just start a “Guys I Think We Should Have Drafted Instead” thread so we can keep all that nonsense in one thread? We have Cine. We will have Cine for several years. We may never have Hamilton. It’s not like he’s playing like a hall of famer right now. Maybe give it more than 3 games. 

[vike daddy]

1 hour ago, wcblack34 said:

Good lord. Can we just start a “Guys I Think We Should Have Drafted Instead” thread so we can keep all that nonsense in one thread? 

i actually was going to just the other day!

but i thought i'd call it, "Stuff I knew better than the experts, look at me!"

[CriminalMind]

8 minutes ago, vike daddy said:

i actually was going to just the other day!

but i thought i'd call it, "Stuff I knew better than the experts, look at me!"

Sounds good. 

[Cearbhall]

15 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I assume Cine did not play because he was hurt but apparently not especially this past game against the Lions. 

The Saints piloted by the Red Rifle, Andy Dalton, aren't super likely to take advantage of our safeties with deep passes. However, it may be that lack superior athletic ability in the safety group that causes them to go conservative, which result in leaving the underneath open all too often. Dalton may eat the Vikings up with that underneath stuff if it is as open as it has been.

When the defense gets backed up against the end zone, they don't have to worry about the deep zone. If the Vikings are keeping deep to hide the possible weakness, the back of the end zone is an alternative way to hide that and it allows the Vikings to rely on their safeties covering that much closer to the line of scrimmage. Perhaps this is why the Vikings aren't giving up too many points while giving up silly amounts of yards.

I was never a fan of Foge Fazio's bend but don't break defenses back in the day. I sure hope the Vikings have the personnel to execute something more aggressive. Lewis Cine figuring out the scheme may help with that. I said before the Lions game when it was announced that Cine wouldn't be the fulltime fill-in for Smith that it was not a good sign for Cine that he hasn't taken clear control of at least the backup job. It is even worse when he didn't even rotate in as a backup. I won't go any further on that because this board as a whole is not one that appreciates things critical of the Vikings most of the time.

It is true that Cine may have been focusing on the position that Bynum won as it was expected Bynum and Cine would be in competition for that starting job. Perhaps his hope of winning that starting job caused Cine to not pay as much attention to what the team wants out of the other safety spot and consequently be behind Josh Metellus. If it is a case of Cine focusing too much on the responsibilities of one safety position over the other that should work itself out in not too long. IMO, the Vikings need to try something to strengthen their porous defense if they want to be able to make a serious run this year. While, as you have noted, the team has no real options at slot CB, if Cine figures it out he is a piece that can be used to allow the Vikings to play with a little more aggression. Given the troubles at slot corner, there are situations where three safety looks might be useful. However, I have to agree with the sentiment expressed by Wolfson on it being a red flag that Cine doesn't appear to be one of the team's top three CBs yet.

The Saints, led by Andy Dalton, might not have what it takes to truly expose the Vikings defense. But then again, maybe Dalton will surprise the Vikings. It will not have been the first time that the Vikings had a defense exposed by a backup QB. Sadly, that is all too common. I am hoping the new regime will not fall into that trap.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Cearbhall

[Ozzy]

Where is Ross Blacklock?  He is not even good enough to play for them?

 

That front of the 3/4 is kind of suspect.  Harrison Phillips is more of a DE not a NT and not sure he is a fit at NT in a 3/4, Tomlinson has done some things but has not been dominating either.  Wish Blacklock could get in some more time and take Bullard out but clearly he is not even better than him.  Also would be nice to have some NT flexibility and another guy to try in there from time to time.

 

TY McGill, where are you when we need you?  Damn I wish he did not get hurt, I would take him starting over Bullard any day.  And sucks James Lynch has not been great so far this year either.  

 

Not an awful game this last weekend but they were playing against a backup QB, RB and backup top WR and a backup OT and OG.  So in that respect not very impressive.  

[SteelKing728]

Tomlinson is just fine. He's really done well so far.

I think addressing DT, DE, and possibly CB again in 2023 should be a priority. I was never really intrigued much by Lewis Cine either but we still have him on contract for at least 3 years if he ever recovers fully.

We aren't stopping the run much at all this season. Its a shame we passed on Jordan Davis, who I think could have been a solution to that problem this year.

[Ozzy]

7 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

Tomlinson is just fine. He's really done well so far.

I think addressing DT, DE, and possibly CB again in 2023 should be a priority. I was never really intrigued much by Lewis Cine either but we still have him on contract for at least 3 years if he ever recovers fully.

We aren't stopping the run much at all this season. Its a shame we passed on Jordan Davis, who I think could have been a solution to that problem this year.

Sure could say Tomlinson is the best of those front 3 so far this year but that is not saying much.  I agree I would love to have Jordan Davis as the NT and Phillips/Tomlinson outside of him, that would be interesting, Davis is not seeing much PT on the Eagles but they have 2 great starting DTs and another really good backup besides himself and it is a stacked DT room there.

Still would be interesting if Blacklock can do anything or be better than Bullard.  

[Ozzy]

It does help having a great 3/4 DL front, look at these defenses, Vikings do not have near the star power at those positions or the depth.  

 

Bucs:
Akiem Hicks 

Vita Vea / Rakeem Nunez-Roches

William Gholston / Logan Hall

 

 

Rams:
A'Shawn Robinson / Marquise Copeland

Greg Gaines

Aaron Donald

 

 

Packers:
Dean Lowry / Devonte Wyatt

Kenny Clark / T.J. Slaton

Jarran Reed

 

 

Steelers:
Larry Ogunjobi / Chris Wormley

Montravius Adams / Tyson Alualu

Cameron Heyward / DeMarvin Leal / Isaiahh Loudermilk

[wcblack34]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:39 PM, wcblack34 said:

Good lord. Can we just start a “Guys I Think We Should Have Drafted Instead” thread so we can keep all that nonsense in one thread? We have Cine. We will have Cine for several years. We may never have Hamilton. It’s not like he’s playing like a hall of famer right now. Maybe give it more than 3 games. 

Bump

[swede700]

This could potentially blow up all the narratives that people seem to be having about this defense, because, while the defense may not be playing great, it appears that teams aren't actually scoring on this defense...which is the most important point.  

 

[Ozzy]

7 hours ago, wcblack34 said:

Bump

So you have to bump what you just said?  Sorry for a broad perspective on things, and yes "Fixing the D in 2022" has to deal with the freaking personnel on the team!  Keep living in your pretend land where personnel does not matter in terms of results.  Any comments or just going to say shut up quit saying this or quit saying that?  

 

Why are the 49ers good at D?  They drafted well, Nick Bosa (superstar) Fred Warner (superstar) Talanoa Hufanga (emerging superstar) Arik Armstead (superstar) Dre Greenlaw (emerging superstar) Al-Shaair (super talented) Emmanuel Moseley (super talented) Javon Kinlaw (super talented)  ...etc   Sure not all of the defensive players were drafted by the 49ers but all those guys were so personnel matters as does the draft.

 

 

So what is your take the defense is awesome?  Yeah not super hard against a team with once more, a backup QB, OT, RB, top WR and OG, but yes they did better.  Hunter still has very few sacks and QB pressures though so that is still an issue that has still not improved.  So either he is still learning how to play in a 3/4 or it is simply not a fit at all with what he does well.  

 

PS won't be able to give it a few more games with Cine, he is out for the year most likely.  

[wcblack34]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

So you have to bump what you just said?  Sorry for a broad perspective on things, and yes "Fixing the D in 2022" has to deal with the freaking personnel on the team!  Keep living in your pretend land where personnel does not matter in terms of results.  Any comments or just going to say shut up quit saying this or quit saying that?  

 

Why are the 49ers good at D?  They drafted well, Nick Bosa (superstar) Fred Warner (superstar) Talanoa Hufanga (emerging superstar) Arik Armstead (superstar) Dre Greenlaw (emerging superstar) Al-Shaair (super talented) Emmanuel Moseley (super talented) Javon Kinlaw (super talented)  ...etc   Sure not all of the defensive players were drafted by the 49ers but all those guys were so personnel matters as does the draft.

 

 

So what is your take the defense is awesome?  Yeah not super hard against a team with once more, a backup QB, OT, RB, top WR and OG, but yes they did better.  Hunter still has very few sacks and QB pressures though so that is still an issue that has still not improved.  So either he is still learning how to play in a 3/4 or it is simply not a fit at all with what he does well.  

 

PS won't be able to give it a few more games with Cine, he is out for the year most likely.  

Well, as the name of the thread involves fixing the defense in 2022, I think it's safe to say that moaning about who we could have drafted, but didn't, won't accomplish that goal. So whatever the answer to that question is, it isn't "WE SHOULD HAVE DRAFTED SO AND SO" over and over again. Now if you want to advocate trading the Eagles for Jordan Davis or the Ravens for Kyle Hamilton, sure, go ahead I guess, but there are plenty of other threads related to the 2022 Draft. Not every thread needs to become one. 

[Ozzy]

20 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

Well, as the name of the thread involves fixing the defense in 2022, I think it's safe to say that moaning about who we could have drafted, but didn't, won't accomplish that goal. So whatever the answer to that question is, it isn't "WE SHOULD HAVE DRAFTED SO AND SO" over and over again. Now if you want to advocate trading the Eagles for Jordan Davis or the Ravens for Kyle Hamilton, sure, go ahead I guess, but there are plenty of other threads related to the 2022 Draft. Not every thread needs to become one. 

I follow personnel very closely at the college and pro level, if you do not like that then maybe do not read what I say.  Instead of actually talking about prospects or personnel just say you are wrong Vikings are always right yay.  Have fun with that.  

 

 

6 hours ago, swede700 said:

This could potentially blow up all the narratives that people seem to be having about this defense, because, while the defense may not be playing great, it appears that teams aren't actually scoring on this defense...which is the most important point.  

 

"Bad offense, good defense" ?

6th worst in total yards allowed per game, 7th worst in total passing yards allowed per game, 10th worst in total rush yards allowed per game, 12th best  in points allowed per game which is obviously the only saving grace.  But it is deceptive because if you take out the Packer game they are 12th worst in points allowed at 24.3 and not 20.0.

 

Keep pretending they played against Saints starters in the last game and they did not exactly stop those backups that well considering they did not have 5 offensive starters.  

 

 

 

 

[swede700]

15 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I follow personnel very closely at the college and pro level, if you do not like that then maybe do not read what I say.  Instead of actually talking about prospects or personnel just say you are wrong Vikings are always right yay.  Have fun with that.  

 

 

"Bad offense, good defense" ?

6th worst in total yards allowed per game, 7th worst in total passing yards allowed per game, 10th worst in total rush yards allowed per game, 12th best  in points allowed per game which is obviously the only saving grace.  But it is deceptive because if you take out the Packer game they are 12th worst in points allowed at 24.3 and not 20.0.

 

Keep pretending they played against Saints starters in the last game and they did not exactly stop those backups that well considering they did not have 5 offensive starters.  

 

 

 

 

Statistics are always deceptive...as are yours.  You can't take out the Packers game, because it still occurred.  We know the defense isn't performing well (which is reflected in FootballOutsiders as they are the 26th ranked defense), but points against are what matters, yards don't.  I've been insistent for years that yards against are one of the ridiculous stats used to evaluate defenses because they are rather pointless.  A defense could give up 60 yds on a drive, but end up only giving up 3 pts. Giving up 3 pts, especially in today's NFL where the rules are given unfair advantage to the offense, is a win every time.  While I long for the days of good defense when CBs were allowed to actually touch WRs beyond 5 yds and D-Linemen were allowed to hit the QB a few steps after the ball was thrown (which is why a 45 yr old can still be playing), that's  not coming back, so we have to evaluate them differently. 

It's why a team like Jacksonville can give up 330 yds a game (14th in the NFL), but only 16 pts per game (good for 4th in the NFL), but the Saints can give up a similar number of yards, but 8 pts more per game and is 1-3 (Jacksonville is 2-2, but probably should be 3-1).  Yards, in the end, don't really tell you much.  Now, sure there are the extremes, like Buffalo and San Francisco at one end and Detroit, Seattle, Baltimore and Houston at the other, but you can't tell much about the others from yards.   

[Ozzy]

7 hours ago, swede700 said:

Statistics are always deceptive...as are yours.  You can't take out the Packers game, because it still occurred.  We know the defense isn't performing well (which is reflected in FootballOutsiders as they are the 26th ranked defense), but points against are what matters, yards don't.  I've been insistent for years that yards against are one of the ridiculous stats used to evaluate defenses because they are rather pointless.  A defense could give up 60 yds on a drive, but end up only giving up 3 pts. Giving up 3 pts, especially in today's NFL where the rules are given unfair advantage to the offense, is a win every time.  While I long for the days of good defense when CBs were allowed to actually touch WRs beyond 5 yds and D-Linemen were allowed to hit the QB a few steps after the ball was thrown (which is why a 45 yr old can still be playing), that's  not coming back, so we have to evaluate them differently. 

It's why a team like Jacksonville can give up 330 yds a game (14th in the NFL), but only 16 pts per game (good for 4th in the NFL), but the Saints can give up a similar number of yards, but 8 pts more per game and is 1-3 (Jacksonville is 2-2, but probably should be 3-1).  Yards, in the end, don't really tell you much.  Now, sure there are the extremes, like Buffalo and San Francisco at one end and Detroit, Seattle, Baltimore and Houston at the other, but you can't tell much about the others from yards.   

True and I agree it is pretty ridiculous the rules changes which all favor the offense.  And agreed again no way a QB should be able to play at 45 years old but like you said they are barely touched and if they are touched it is not nearly like the punishment say Dan Marino had to take.  

 

Sure points matter but so does ball control and getting off the field.  I believe they are currently 25th in opponent time of possession at 52.79% of the time the other team has the ball.  

 

Either way personnel is an issue at the moment and a predicted issue before the season started and not is becoming worse with certain injuries.  And in no way is Harrison Smith playing great football or Danielle Hunter.  Would not be shocked if Hunter wants a trade unless things really improve for him, I think if he was put in a natural 4/3 defense he would look like a different player.  

 

 

On the plus side they did sign Khyiris Tonga a very talented NT who looked good on the Bears in preseason at times and totally fits the position.  Surprised the Vikings never hung on to Jordon Scott and tried him as a true NT, and honestly on the roster they do not have one but Tonga would be good to see what he can do.  And still Blacklock better start playing or getting him was a total waste.  The two DEs in the 3/4 should be Tomlinson and Phillips and a different NT in the middle but not sure Tonga is a starter quite yet, and I assume they wanted Blacklock as the other DE and Phillips in the middle but again I am not sure he is at his best there unless he was in a 4/3.