Jraider91 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I would put an elite WR behind and elite DE, 3T, LT and CB and I agree it is a game changing position My stance has been look how terrible the value for top 20 draft pick WR's has been over the last decade and how many have turned out to be good value? Very few as there has been a lot of fools gold WR's taken within the top 20 picks. WR value can be had later on unless you have a sure fire elite stud( Julio, Megatron) sitting on the board. Yeah I think it is comparable to CB/DE, more valuable than DT and defo LT. You can say that about any position though, only 2 of the top 10 sack leaders this year are taken in the top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jraider91 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I disagree with this. An elite LT impacts many plays a game, the impact made might not be as tangable as say a catch for a WR but any QB who has a sieve at LT knows how much blindside pressure can disrupt nearly every passing down. Play Pleatherwhiff at LT and match him up against Danielle Hunter then tell me little impact having an elite LT makes. That's literally why I said an average one, I addressed your 2nd bit in the comment you quoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: There have been a lot of offensive line busts though. It's underrated. And I disagree, college WR's every year are trending toward being more pro ready. The bust rate is going down for WR's. Especially because we'll be picking in the early 20s. We're not spending a top 5-10 pick on one. I don't disagree here. I have stated that if Williams is on the board at 22ish I would strongly consider making that pick even with his ACL tear. If not for the ACL he is a top 15 talent at a position of great need. Edited January 16, 2022 by Frankie2Gunz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Jraider91 said: That's literally why I said an average one, I addressed your 2nd bit in the comment you quoted? I was using an extreme example to prove my point and I just wanted to besmirch Pleatherwhiff for his terrible play all season long. The difference between say Trent Willaims and an average LT is a massive gap. LT's massively impact both the passing and run game. A LT who is elite at both pass and run blocking is an invaluable asset regardless of who the QB is. Teams with below average QB's tend to run the ball more and a LT can be very impactful here also. You put a good young Wr with a bad passing QB (Hurts is a prime example) and their value significantly declines and can be almost non existent at times. That is why you see so many teams clamoring to draft for elite LT's early on draft day. Edited January 16, 2022 by Frankie2Gunz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jraider91 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I was using an extreme example to prove my point. The difference between Trent Willaims and the 16th or so ranked LT is a massive gap. LT's massively impact both the passing and run game. A LT who is elite at both pass and run blocking is an invaluable asset regardless of who the QB is. Teams with below average QB's tend to run the ball more and a LT can be very impactful here also. You put a good young Wr with a bad passing QB (Hurts is a prime example) and their value significantly declines. And you put Joe Thomas on the Browns and he never plays a playoff game. Average o-line + elite WRs >> Elite o-line + average WRs imo if you have a good QB. You can't win with bad units of either though. The biggest advantage of a stud WR is that it elevates the unit so much by drawing coverage. An elite LT still be part of a terrible O-Line, an elite WR is never part of a poor receiving core Edited January 16, 2022 by Jraider91 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jraider91 said: And you put Joe Thomas on the Browns and he never plays a playoff game. Average o-line + elite WRs >> Elite o-line + average WRs imo if you have a good QB. You can't win with bad units of either though. The biggest advantage of a stud WR is that it elevates the unit so much by drawing coverage. An elite LT still be part of a terrible O-Line, an elite WR is never part of a poor receiving core I'm not sure what your point is? Megatron on the Lions didn't do much for their W/L record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jraider91 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I'm not sure what your point is? Megatron on the Lions didn't do much for their W/L record. Because you mentioned that a bad QB makes a good WR non-existent but a bad QB makes a good LT the same, if you don't have a QB then it is all pointless anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jraider91 said: Because you mentioned that a bad QB makes a good WR non-existent but a bad QB makes a good LT the same, if you don't have a QB then it is all pointless anyway I don't agree. Even with a bad passing QB like Lamar or Hurts (both team have been in the playoffs over the last two years) a LT can have a significant impact in the running game and that goes for both RB's and QB's. Philly and Balt. have 1st round WR's who have been average at best due to poor QB play. Edited January 17, 2022 by Frankie2Gunz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I don't agree. Even with a bad passing QB like Lamar or Hurts (both team have been in the playoffs over the last two years) a LT can have a significant impact in the running game and that goes for both RB's and QB's. Philly and Balt. have 1st round WR's who have been average at best due to poor QB play. What do you think about the qb from Pitt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jraider91 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: I don't agree. Even with a bad passing QB like Lamar or Hurts (both team have been in the playoffs over the last two years) a LT can have a significant impact in the running game and that goes for both RB's and QB's. Philly and Balt. have 1st round WR's who have been average at best due to poor QB play. Lamar's numbers were very similar with and without Staley when he went out last year. Hollywood had basically the same numbers as Renfrow despite playing with Huntley for part of the year and Smith had 900 yards & 5 TDs as a rookie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said: What do you think about the qb from Pitt? Pickett? Honestly I don't watch much college football so I can't really comment. I would have to spend time looking at his film, which I don't want to do, to give an accurate assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 9 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said: What do you think about the qb from Pitt? Poor man's Joe Burrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: You're missing the point in that Renfrow can't play on the outside do to his limited skillset. Renfrow is force fed the ball because we have nothing on the outside, that is a fact. Show me one team that would want their most productive WR to come out of the slot and also how many slot WR's do you see drafted in the 1st round of NFL drafts? That is because slot specific Wr's are limited in what they can do and don't hold much positional value. Renfrow also faces slot CB's typically the third best CB on most teams, he rarely sees a #1 or #2 CB. This helps his numbers. Saddle Renfrow with a terrible QB like the ones mentioned above, let the teams #1 CB follow him around and put him on a team that doesn't pepper the slot like we do, which is 90 plus percent of teams and you'll see his stats fall off of a cliff. Renfrow is a good slot WR but is also the benefactor of being on a team with no Wr talent, our outside guys can't separate and win which allows Renfrow to be littered with targets underneath as he beats up on a teams 3rd CB. I understand that Renfrow is not an ideal outside WR but he has faced some good corners because w do lack talent at WR and he played well still. I do not agree with talent around him argument. He averaged 57 yards a game before Ruggs was arrested and averaged 63 yards a game after. His targets per game also did not change. Like I said Renfrow does not have the skillset to play on the outside as well as some of those other guys but those other guys can not play his position as well as him. The difference is how much teams value one position higher than the other which I gave you credit for your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/16/2022 at 9:11 AM, big_palooka said: No you don't. Stop talking loser talk and trying to blame refs. So this loser talk is why that same crew is no longer officiating in the playoffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 4 hours ago, Jerry said: So this loser talk is why that same crew is no longer officiating in the playoffs? Them doing a terrible job does not mean it was one sided, it wasn't. The whistle play was a bad, but let's stop pretending like Boyd wasn't wide open. Nobody makes a play on that ball. Every time the Raiders lose a game, fans cry about the refs. The refs are not the ones who couldn't get off the field on defense. They didn't catch a kickoff on their own 2. They didn't spike the ball with 30 seconds to play and lose a down. They didn't call the ridiculous final play. Bet better than blaming the refs every time something doesn't go the teams way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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