Trade rumor/suggestion thread

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

If the salaries we were taking back were any longer, I'd expect us to avoid it. We aren't going to be players for free agents for 2019-20 season anyways. These moves keep us under the tax threshold, so we avoid that, and getting 3 #1 picks helps us build for the future. 

Except late 1st like that don't do too much to help us build.  If they offered a better prospect or pick then sure, but they aren't.  If the Cavs just wait and either buyout/let expire the contracts of Hill, JR, Perkins, and White, they'd be able to straight up absorb salary next offseason when it is at a premium for teams wanting to make room for multiple max FAs.  Teams like NY, LA, etc will be willing to pay a premium when/if they know they have someone coming and they need to make the cap room.  For example with NYK to take on Hardaway, Noah, and Lee I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be willing to toss in whoever they pick in next years draft if it means they can sign Irving + Bulter or whatever 2 max FAs they are going after.  LA might be willing to send over Ingram along with Deng's contract to guarantee enough room for 2 max FAs.  Trading the cap space right now is a bad idea because it will still be there next summer when it's worth more.  The only way I would sacrifice that is if they are attaching a premium pick/prospect already.

[MookieMonstah]

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Except late 1st like that don't do too much to help us build.  If they offered a better prospect or pick then sure, but they aren't.  If the Cavs just wait and either buyout/let expire the contracts of Hill, JR, Perkins, and White, they'd be able to straight up absorb salary next offseason when it is at a premium for teams wanting to make room for multiple max FAs.  Teams like NY, LA, etc will be willing to pay a premium when/if they know they have someone coming and they need to make the cap room.  For example with NYK to take on Hardaway, Noah, and Lee I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be willing to toss in whoever they pick in next years draft if it means they can sign Irving + Bulter or whatever 2 max FAs they are going after.  LA might be willing to send over Ingram along with Deng's contract to guarantee enough room for 2 max FAs.  Trading the cap space right now is a bad idea because it will still be there next summer when it's worth more.  The only way I would sacrifice that is if they are attaching a premium pick/prospect already.

Okay. Whats the difference between the Knicks 1st if they add a max guy and the OKC 1st? Maybe a handful of spots? Singler is really on a 1 year deal so thats not a big deal at all, he's got a team option for 2020. Only change is I'd make them take TT's contract not George Hills. He's only guaranteed 1M in 2020.

[Raves]

2 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Okay. Whats the difference between the Knicks 1st if they add a max guy and the OKC 1st? Maybe a handful of spots? Singler is really on a 1 year deal so thats not a big deal at all, he's got a team option for 2020. Only change is I'd make them take TT's contract not George Hills. He's only guaranteed 1M in 2020.

I'm talking about the 1st round pick that they have in 2019.  The salary of that player, Hardaway, Noah, and Lee will keep them from being able to sign 2 max players.  So it's possibly to get a top 10 prospect if someone takes on those contracts.

[MookieMonstah]

3 minutes ago, Raves said:

I'm talking about the 1st round pick that they have in 2019.  The salary of that player, Hardaway, Noah, and Lee will keep them from being able to sign 2 max players.  So it's possibly to get a top 10 prospect if someone takes on those contracts.

Okay its still dumb to not take 3 firsts when you wouldn't really be adding any salary and when you're probably going to suck for the next 3-5 years at least. Take the picks, add young talent and properly rebuild.

[H2ThaIzzo]

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Except late 1st like that don't do too much to help us build.  If they offered a better prospect or pick then sure, but they aren't.  If the Cavs just wait and either buyout/let expire the contracts of Hill, JR, Perkins, and White, they'd be able to straight up absorb salary next offseason when it is at a premium for teams wanting to make room for multiple max FAs.  Teams like NY, LA, etc will be willing to pay a premium when/if they know they have someone coming and they need to make the cap room.  For example with NYK to take on Hardaway, Noah, and Lee I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be willing to toss in whoever they pick in next years draft if it means they can sign Irving + Bulter or whatever 2 max FAs they are going after.  LA might be willing to send over Ingram along with Deng's contract to guarantee enough room for 2 max FAs.  Trading the cap space right now is a bad idea because it will still be there next summer when it's worth more.  The only way I would sacrifice that is if they are attaching a premium pick/prospect already.

John Collins, Harry Giles, Jarrett Allen, Kyle Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart, all guys drafted outside the lottery in 2017 who either had pretty solid rookie campaigns, or are looking like potential future studs. I am intrigued surely by what the Knicks have planned, but I can work with 3 #1 picks. 

[Raves]

50 minutes ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

John Collins, Harry Giles, Jarrett Allen, Kyle Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart, all guys drafted outside the lottery in 2017 who either had pretty solid rookie campaigns, or are looking like potential future studs. I am intrigued surely by what the Knicks have planned, but I can work with 3 #1 picks. 

That's what 6 guys out of 45?  So you have a 13.3% chance of hitting on one of them to be a decent rotation player/potential starter.  Now if the drafts were guaranteed to be as deep as this one was, I would've taken 3 picks in the top 10 picks of the 2nd round without thinking twice as that means potentially Khyrie Thomas, Mitchell Robinson, and KBD... but most drafts aren't even close to as deep as this one was.  Heck those guys would've been 1st round locks.

[Raves]

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Okay its still dumb to not take 3 firsts when you wouldn't really be adding any salary and when you're probably going to suck for the next 3-5 years at least. Take the picks, add young talent and properly rebuild.

it is adding salary because Hill is basically expiring.  The Cavs could be looking at upwards of 60 mil in cap space next year Love opts out/traded for expiring contracts/rookie scale contracts.  That salary is much more valuable than 3 late 1sts as you could still get those same 3 firsts next summer if they still wanted to shed salary, potentially more.

[11sanchez11]

3 hours ago, Raves said:

Teams like NY, LA, etc will be willing to pay a premium when/if they know they have someone coming and they need to make the cap room.  For example with NYK to take on Hardaway, Noah, and Lee I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be willing to toss in whoever they pick in next years draft if it means they can sign Irving + Bulter or whatever 2 max FAs they are going after. 

Well two FAs would need to want to go there and a bunch of other teams will also have cap space. You are asking for a lot to be the one who hits it big off of this.

[MookieMonstah]

29 minutes ago, Raves said:

it is adding salary because Hill is basically expiring.  The Cavs could be looking at upwards of 60 mil in cap space next year Love opts out/traded for expiring contracts/rookie scale contracts.  That salary is much more valuable than 3 late 1sts as you could still get those same 3 firsts next summer if they still wanted to shed salary, potentially more.

You might get those firsts, a year later and they'll be the same late round picks or heavily protected 1sts youll never get. This train of thought makes no sense, Love is more than likely gone but even if that happens I'm failing to see how you guys will even come close to having 60M in cap space.

All the fans on this board talk about trading big contracts to open up cap space like you wont take ANY money back in return, that never happens. The Cavs aren't going to have a ton of cap space until the 2020 off-season. If the Cavs get offered 3 first round picks just to take on salary that expires in 2020 anyway, they should absolutely do it.

[Raves]

2 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

Well two FAs would need to want to go there and a bunch of other teams will also have cap space. You are asking for a lot to be the one who hits it big off of this.

Most of those teams with the cap space will also be vying for those same FAs that NY, LA etc will be going for so they won't be trading away that salary until they know for sure they can't get a guy so the cap really won't be nearly as much available as you make it out to be.  Even teams like Chicago might be buyers next year.  At most I see 3 teams selling cap space next summer, the rest will be looking to sell to either make room for FAs or to get our of a massive luxury bill because they made a horrible decision in giving a player $45 mil/yr along with 2 others $30 mil (looking at Washington here).  In the case of Washington that means a team like Cleveland could probably poach Oubre from them because they won't want to pay the luxury bill associated with paying him, Porter, Wall, Beal, and the others.  So that also means that not selling cap space will mean that Cleveland can look to poach promising looking RFA for less than what their teams might match otherwise if offered early on before players really start deciding where they are going.

1 minute ago, MookieMonstah said:

You might get those firsts, a year later and they'll be the same late round picks or heavily protected 1sts youll never get. This train of thought makes no sense, Love is more than likely gone but even if that happens I'm failing to see how you guys will even come close to having 60M in cap space.

All the fans on this board talk about trading big contracts to open up cap space like you wont take ANY money back in return, that never happens. The Cavs aren't going to have a ton of cap space until the 2020 off-season. If the Cavs get offered 3 first round picks just to take on salary that expires in 2020 anyway, they should absolutely do it.

JR Smith is only guaranted 3.8 million in 2019 if waived before July 1st, George Hill is only guaranteed 1 mil if waived before July 1st.  If Kevin Love opts out thats $25 mil freed up.  Currently the Cavs are projected to be on the hook for $106,430,553 with just waiving JR and George Hill as well as Love opting out, that frees up $54,405,700 putting them at $52,024,853 in owed salary for 2019 to start the offseason with a projected 2019-2020 cap space of 109 million.  Obviously that's not including their own 1st round pick as well, so I'm sorry they have aroudn $50 million in guaranteed salaries.  But wait theres more!  Korver is only guaranteed 3.4 million of his 7.5 so that opens up nearly $55 million in cap space for the Cavs to have if they simply stand pat and waive everyone next offseason/Love opts out rather than taking on salary now.  That money can be spent either absorbing salary for teams looking to make space and getting good assets or it can be spent offering contracts to the 2019 RFA class.  I'm not arguing against taking on money that expires in 2020, simply about when you take the money on.  I think that they should wait till the last possible moment to take on any extra money if they can.  I mean there's a reason why they only offered Hood the QO and not an actual contract at a reasonable rate.

[11sanchez11]

36 minutes ago, Raves said:

Most of those teams with the cap space will also be vying for those same FAs that NY, LA etc will be going for so they won't be trading away that salary until they know for sure they can't get a guy so the cap really won't be nearly as much available as you make it out to be.  Even teams like Chicago might be buyers next year.  At most I see 3 teams selling cap space next summer,

And when those players decide to go to one team the other teams will be open to taking on cap for picks.

Half the teams (literally 15 of them) have over 19 million in cap space next year. And that is before players get stretched. And I don't think that even takes into account unguaranteed contracts or players who will opt out. Of course some will give extensions to players and that will change. 

And again, you would need multiple players wanting to go to a team that has to move significant money to make it happen. And these teams most likely won't do it before FA starts and give up a good draft pick in hopes something will happen. Also, I think 3-4 teams either have or can easily make room for 2 max contracts (depending on which max players go there) next year. So those players can go there if they want. 

Like I said you would need a lot to go right to be the team to take advantage of this situation. 

 

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

And when those players decide to go to one team the other teams will be open to taking on cap for picks.

Half the teams (literally 15 of them) have over 19 million in cap space next year. And that is before players get stretched. And I don't think that even takes into account unguaranteed contracts or players who will opt out. Of course some will give extensions to players and that will change. 

And again, you would need multiple players wanting to go to a team that has to move significant money to make it happen. And these teams most likely won't do it before FA starts and give up a good draft pick in hopes something will happen. Also, I think 3-4 teams either have or can easily make room for 2 max contracts (depending on which max players go there) next year. So those players can go there if they want. 

Like I said you would need a lot to go right to be the team to take advantage of this situation. 

 

Of those 15 with 19 million in cap space you aren't taking into account cap holds of players they will likely want to retain.  Also if a team is looking at signing the same player another team is, why would they make a trade to open up cap space for that team to sign them?  Wouldn't they rather refuse the trade and have the FA have to choose another destination if the cap can't be freed up?  Also 19 million gets you exactly 0 max FA's.  They are all coming in higher than that, closer to about $33 million so those teams will still need to open up $14 mil in cap space to be able to sign even 1 of those max FAs.  Heck the cap hold of Porzingas alone is $17 million for the Knicks and then the max contract he will be signing is higher still.  I don't htink that 3-4 teams can' "easily" make room for 2 max FA.  Having available cap is much harder than you think.  Even Philly who is only looking to make max cap space for 1 player is going to be nitpicky about a guy like Kyle Korver who would help them immensely this year but the 3.4 million in guaranteed money in 2019 would make them getting a max FA extremely close/just missing.

[11sanchez11]

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Of those 15 with 19 million in cap space you aren't taking into account cap holds of players they will likely want to retain.

But it does include unguaranteed contracts, TOs/POs that will be declined, and players that will/can be stretched. The Knicks can cut Lance Thomas and stretch Noah and that saves them another ~20 million, all of which is currently included as part of their salaries in the list I am looking at. You gave the Cavs over 50 million in cap space just above and the thing I'm looking at doesn't even have them at 500 thousand in available cap space. So yeah, teams can make more space easily.

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Also if a team is looking at signing the same player another team is, why would they make a trade to open up cap space for that team to sign them? 

cause they are smart and realize if they don't someone else will

1 hour ago, Raves said:

Also 19 million gets you exactly 0 max FA's. 

ok, I said all of them have more than 19 million. 10 have over 30 million. Also, what if the Warriors resign KD and Klay, Kyrie resigns with the Celtics, KAT and Jimmy resign with the Wolves, Kemba resigns. That's six of the best FAs going to teams that weren't included in the 15. There isn't going to be 15 max FAs available next year, more like 2-4. And you have two of them going to the same team, that leaves a lot of teams left out.

[Raves]

3 hours ago, 11sanchez11 said:

But it does include unguaranteed contracts, TOs/POs that will be declined, and players that will/can be stretched. The Knicks can cut Lance Thomas and stretch Noah and that saves them another ~20 million, all of which is currently included as part of their salaries in the list I am looking at. You gave the Cavs over 50 million in cap space just above and the thing I'm looking at doesn't even have them at 500 thousand in available cap space. So yeah, teams can make more space easily.

cause they are smart and realize if they don't someone else will

ok, I said all of them have more than 19 million. 10 have over 30 million. Also, what if the Warriors resign KD and Klay, Kyrie resigns with the Celtics, KAT and Jimmy resign with the Wolves, Kemba resigns. That's six of the best FAs going to teams that weren't included in the 15. There isn't going to be 15 max FAs available next year, more like 2-4. And you have two of them going to the same team, that leaves a lot of teams left out.

I understand what you are saying, I really do, but my point, as it has been, is that there is no reason for the Cavs to sell their cap space now when there is potential to get more for it next summer unless it is a deal that has some oomph to it.  Like I wouldn't want to do a trade that involved Oubre right now as he doesn't fit what the Cavs should be looking to do not to mention he's about to be a RFA.  Now if you said before this draft this trade was being offered and Cavs were getting 3-4 2nd rounds picks between #31 and #50 I would've done that trade as this was a SUPER SUPER deep draft and guys like Khyri Thomas, De'Anthony Melton, KBD, Mitchell Robinson, etc where available in the 2nd and would be a great boost to a rebuilding team.  Now those players would likely be 1st round locks, likely late lotto/mid 1st round picks in the majority of the previous. 

We can't assume that future drafts will be as strong so a late 1st only has a 13.3% chance of being successful even using just the 2017 draft.  So whether they sell their space now, or if they sell it later, do you really think they will get a big difference in the offer?  Even if there are other teams willing to take on the contracts, they all know which teams are desperate to clear cap space and they won't be dropping their offers by much because other teams are also willing to sell cap space.  Granted there might be that one really bad team that seems to always take all the bad contracts for almost nothing, but there's nothing you can do about that.  I mean Charlotte got 2 2nd rounders for taking Mozgov, while the Nets got a lotto protected 1st for taking on Faried and Arthur, not much you can do about it when you consider Faried is still a slightly useful player while Mozgov gives you nothing.

So if the suggested trade gave something with more oomph I'd be down for it, but taking those contracts/players doesn't move the needle even with 3 late 1sts in unknonwn draft depths.

[MookieMonstah]

3 hours ago, Raves said:

I understand what you are saying, I really do, but my point, as it has been, is that there is no reason for the Cavs to sell their cap space now when there is potential to get more for it next summer unless it is a deal that has some oomph to it.  Like I wouldn't want to do a trade that involved Oubre right now as he doesn't fit what the Cavs should be looking to do not to mention he's about to be a RFA.  Now if you said before this draft this trade was being offered and Cavs were getting 3-4 2nd rounds picks between #31 and #50 I would've done that trade as this was a SUPER SUPER deep draft and guys like Khyri Thomas, De'Anthony Melton, KBD, Mitchell Robinson, etc where available in the 2nd and would be a great boost to a rebuilding team.  Now those players would likely be 1st round locks, likely late lotto/mid 1st round picks in the majority of the previous. 

We can't assume that future drafts will be as strong so a late 1st only has a 13.3% chance of being successful even using just the 2017 draft.  So whether they sell their space now, or if they sell it later, do you really think they will get a big difference in the offer?  Even if there are other teams willing to take on the contracts, they all know which teams are desperate to clear cap space and they won't be dropping their offers by much because other teams are also willing to sell cap space.  Granted there might be that one really bad team that seems to always take all the bad contracts for almost nothing, but there's nothing you can do about that.  I mean Charlotte got 2 2nd rounders for taking Mozgov, while the Nets got a lotto protected 1st for taking on Faried and Arthur, not much you can do about it when you consider Faried is still a slightly useful player while Mozgov gives you nothing.

So if the suggested trade gave something with more oomph I'd be down for it, but taking those contracts/players doesn't move the needle even with 3 late 1sts in unknonwn draft depths.

You’d be a terrible GM tbh. Not taking 3 1sts in a salary dump is lol-worthy.