CKSteeler Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: You don't have to convince me that Brady has had a lot more success in the playoffs. I'm just trying to evaluate the two players based on their skill, not their team accomplishments, which are heavily influenced by the quality of their teammates and coaches. 1. Everything, including individual stats, is influenced by coaching and teammates. 2. You are perfectly fine using regular season stats, much of which were compiled against weak competition, to say Manning > Brady. But you don't see to be interesting in providing the full playoff numbers. Why is one indicative of skill and the other isn't? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 1 minute ago, seminoles1 said: Oh, so they're subjective, but not in the case of Brady. Got it. You think the defenseless receiver rule is what inflated numbers? You think there was THAT big of a difference between 2008-09 and 2011-12 because of an extra flag? We're talking about 2 seasons. Again...story. Manning was awarded MVP because of a story, not just his play. All-Pro just reflects MVP. It's a QB award as you said, so whoever wins MVP is named 1st Team All-Pro. It's the same voters, so you can't use one without the other, and you've already agreed that All-Pro is subjective. Oh wait, sorry, subjective except for in Brady's case. That just shows his lack of dominance. You are getting off track. I'm making the point that Brady never demonstrated a dominant stretch where he clearly elevated himself above his peers. There was never a 3 or 4 year stretch where he was a singularly elite, transcendent player. To me, that is why anointing him GOAT is suspect. How can he be the GOAT without a dominant peak. The 3 All Pros is indicative of the fact that he never had that dominant stretch. If you want to present evidence that, in fact, Brady did have an utterly dominant streak over several years where no QB could claim to rival him, go ahead. It's his level of dominance that I am investigating, not which awards were given out when. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 4 minutes ago, CKSteeler said: 1. Everything, including individual stats, is influenced by coaching and teammates. Yup, and Brady was coached under Belichick for 20 years. Quote 2. You are perfectly fine using regular season stats, much of which were compiled against weak competition, to say Manning > Brady. But you don't see to be interesting in providing the full playoff numbers. Why is one indicative of skill and the other isn't? I consider all competitive games equal when evaluating the ability of a player. Brady obviously played in more playoff games, so I would look at their rate stats to compare them. Let's see, according to NY/A in playoffs, Manning is at 6.60 and Brady is at 6.49. Manning's completion % is 63.2, and Brady's is 62.8. Across categories, I'd say Brady's numbers are marginally better in the playoffs than Manning's but I can't say it is a statistically significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: You are getting off track. I'm making the point that Brady never demonstrated a dominant stretch where he clearly elevated himself above his peers. There was never a 3 or 4 year stretch where he was a singularly elite, transcendent player. To me, that is why anointing him GOAT is suspect. How can he be the GOAT without a dominant peak. The 3 All Pros is indicative of the fact that he never had that dominant stretch. If you want to present evidence that, in fact, Brady did have an utterly dominant streak over several years where no QB could claim to rival him, go ahead. It's his level of dominance that I am investigating, not which awards were given out when. If peak performance over a short time frame is your criteria, then Brett Favre is your GOAT. Who touches him from 1994-97? Brady encapsulates all of the criteria people utilize for GOAT debates and that's why he's almost unquestioned besides you and some other holdouts. Want a dominant stretch? 2007-2012. Want longevity? No one touches him. Want the leader in the record books? He has almost all of them. Want team and postseason success? ROFL, no one is close. Want him to prove it outside of NE? Done. If you only focus on 1 of these things, then you can argue a select few others over Brady. However, no one can bring as many different angles, arguments, and overall success as Brady. That's what sets him apart. Focus on 1, then others pop up. But you lose everyone except Brady when you consider everything that matters. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 This hasn't actually been made official yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoosh Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Chiefs_5627 said: Ffs so is it official or not? yes. officially not official. officially. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidgit Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Brady definitely was smoking out a rat in his inner-circle. Tell somebody he suspects is leaking info that he's retiring and then sees it all over the news the next day. Don't be surprised if Ben Brady goes "missing" in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Just now, seminoles1 said: If peak performance over a short time frame is your criteria, then Brett Favre is your GOAT. Who touches him from 1994-97? I've looked into Favre, and I must say the advanced metrics show that he was not as dominant as the 3 consecutive MVPs would seem to suggest. Quote Brady encapsulates all of the criteria people utilize for GOAT debates and that's why he's almost unquestioned besides you and some other holdouts. Want a dominant stretch? 2007-2012. Want longevity? No one touches him. Want the leader in the record books? He has almost all of them. Want team and postseason success? ROFL, no one is close. Want him to prove it outside of NE? Done. Can you really say the 2007-2012 stretch was that dominant, though? 2007: Obviously Brady was dominant this year with Moss. Favre, 2nd team. 2008: Manning wins MVP, All Pro. Brees 2nd team. 2009: Manning wins MVP, All Pro. Brees, 2nd team All pro. 2010: Brady is back, wins MVP. This is obviously his second strongest season. 2011: Aaron Rodgers has his best season, MVP and all Pro. Drew Brees 2nd team All Pro 2012: Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Brees are all top performers. Manning wins All Pro, Rodgers 2nd team Twice Brady was MVP and All Pro, but in that same stretch of time Manning has 2 MVPs and 3 All Pros. Meanwhile Rodgers and Brees are playing at Brady's level by 2011. Quote If you only focus on 1 of these things, then you can argue a select few others over Brady. However, no one can bring as many different angles, arguments, and overall success as Brady. That's what sets him apart. Focus on 1, then others pop up. But you lose everyone except Brady when you consider everything that matters. Yeah I just disagree. I think peak performance is one of the single most important factors when considering GOAT status, and its an area that Brady just isn't as strong in compared to some others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Now I hope he returns just to spite the media and to spite his haters. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_shadows Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 16 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Yup, and Brady was coached under Belichick for 20 years. I consider all competitive games equal when evaluating the ability of a player. Brady obviously played in more playoff games, so I would look at their rate stats to compare them. Let's see, according to NY/A in playoffs, Manning is at 6.60 and Brady is at 6.49. Manning's completion % is 63.2, and Brady's is 62.8. Across categories, I'd say Brady's numbers are marginally better in the playoffs than Manning's but I can't say it is a statistically significant difference. You keep bringing up him being coached by Belichick for 20 years but what happened the first year they were separated? Brady won the Superbowl and Bill missed the playoffs... The evidence doesn't support the argument that Belichick elevated Brady. If anything it supports the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdrawkcab321 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Brady pulling a mark Henry 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezy Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 He ain’t retiring 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towerbridge Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Holy crap there is still a holdout on Brady not being the GOAT? Does he need to get an 8th ring. Somebody screenshot this to Brady to add more fuel to the fire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Slim Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 13 minutes ago, rob_shadows said: You keep bringing up him being coached by Belichick for 20 years but what happened the first year they were separated? Brady won the Superbowl and Bill missed the playoffs... The evidence doesn't support the argument that Belichick elevated Brady. If anything it supports the opposite. brady's obviously the goat but like the bolded is clearly not true and waaaaay mad oversimplified look at the squad brady had in year one with tampa vs the squad bill had with the patriots during that year - it's clownery to draw an inference from their respective performances that brady elevated belichick because of that one year (in so far as what is the correct take, the correct take is that they're both exemplary and combined they elevated each other given bill's defense and the way brady plays offense were perfect compliments) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NudeTayne Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Towerbridge said: Holy crap there is still a holdout on Brady not being the GOAT? Does he need to get an 8th ring. Somebody screenshot this to Brady to add more fuel to the fire One word: Stanley Cups 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts