Our Coordinators

[roi34]

Ken Norton has to go for our defense to be good. He blitzes almost never, he can't create pressure and he has a top pass rusher! There should be no reason for Reggie Nelson to be back at safety anymore. Nelson has made 0 plays this year. we have 0 int thats a joke and stems from lack of pressure on qbs. 

My biggest pet peeve is that he doesnt even adjust when the rb catches 10 passes a game on us. Cover the running back! 

 

Downing is a rookie so he is learning but has way too much talent to be this unaggressive and safe. We rarely use motion, Playaction, and lynch shouldn't be running out of shotgun on draws. Cooper when used right can be huge playmaker for us but at times doesnt even get looks. And Seth Roberts may be worst slot wr in league.

 

Ken Norton needs to go yesterday. Downing I'm willing to give a little time but needs to improve and quickly. 

 

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

They both need to be fired

[Rich7sena]

I'm done with Norton. His defense assumes it's filled with great players and it only has one. The unit won't be good no matter who's coaching it given the current roster, but it should still be making plays.

I'm good with Downing. In fact, I'd prefer keeping him over most other options.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, roi34 said:

Ken Norton has to go for our defense to be good. He blitzes almost never, he can't create pressure and he has a top pass rusher! There should be no reason for Reggie Nelson to be back at safety anymore. Nelson has made 0 plays this year. we have 0 int thats a joke and stems from lack of pressure on qbs. 

My biggest pet peeve is that he doesnt even adjust when the rb catches 10 passes a game on us. Cover the running back! 

 

Downing is a rookie so he is learning but has way too much talent to be this unaggressive and safe. We rarely use motion, Playaction, and lynch shouldn't be running out of shotgun on draws. Cooper when used right can be huge playmaker for us but at times doesnt even get looks. And Seth Roberts may be worst slot wr in league.

 

Ken Norton needs to go yesterday. Downing I'm willing to give a little time but needs to improve and quickly. 

 

Hate these overreactions. Seth by no means is a great WR, but he's not close to "the worst slot WR in the league". He's an excellent blocking WR. Makes the occasional play and has been clutch for this team in big moments,

Could he be upgraded, sure. But is he the worst in the league...not even close.

[808sinfour4time]

Ken Norton needs to go.  The sample size is now more than large enough to know that he can’t get it done.  At least not here, not with these players.

I’ve been on the “Downing’s in over his head” bus for a few weeks, but I think I’ve disembarked.  I don’t know if he is the answer, but I don’t the we can say yet that he isn’t.

I think Derek’s injury explains more of the offense’s problems than I previously thought.  Apply Occam’s razor here, what’s the more likely explanation for Derek’s change in play:  (1) he’s morphed into someone less manly and is now afraid of physical contact, (2) Todd Downing’s prior reputation for competent coaching was a total mirage and he’s actually epically incompetent or (3) the effects of Derek’s back fracture (!) allow him to play, but put an especially high premium on Derek not being hit?

It has to be #3, right? Or maybe it doesn’t have to be, but it is more likely, isn’t it? He looks stiff.  He hasn’t had the elusiveness that served him so well last year.  Isn’t the more likely explanation for its absence (and the absence of other positive parts of his game) the injury rather than Downing scheming these things out of existence?

I think Derek’s play has also been effected by Downing’s admittedly suspect play calling and the overall disappointment/failure (?) of the Marshawn experiment and the run game in general.  And to the extent I am right about the injury, it’s on Downing to create game plans that work around it, to the extent that’s even possible.

I can probably be talked back on the Downing is bad and needs to go bus.  But after last night, a much simpler explanation presented itself.  Maybe Downing isn’t the incompetent that everyone mistakenly thought was a genius, but perhaps our QB who miraculously came back from a six week injury after two weeks isn’t the same guy yet?   And that’s changed everything.

[IdigtheRaiders!]

     My gut tells me KNJ is gone after this season and Pagano gets the DC job. I also think Downing gets one more year to try and prove himself before he also gets a pink slip.

[roi34]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Hate these overreactions. Seth by no means is a great WR, but he's not close to "the worst slot WR in the league". He's an excellent blocking WR. Makes the occasional play and has been clutch for this team in big moments,

Could he be upgraded, sure. But is he the worst in the league...not even close.

Yes I'm overstating Roberts but I've seen enough of him. rather see more of younger guys. just like id rather see young guys over nelson.

[Chali21]

49 minutes ago, 808sinfour4time said:

Ken Norton needs to go.  The sample size is now more than large enough to know that he can’t get it done.  At least not here, not with these players.

I’ve been on the “Downing’s in over his head” bus for a few weeks, but I think I’ve disembarked.  I don’t know if he is the answer, but I don’t the we can say yet that he isn’t.

I think Derek’s injury explains more of the offense’s problems than I previously thought.  Apply Occam’s razor here, what’s the more likely explanation for Derek’s change in play:  (1) he’s morphed into someone less manly and is now afraid of physical contact, (2) Todd Downing’s prior reputation for competent coaching was a total mirage and he’s actually epically incompetent or (3) the effects of Derek’s back fracture (!) allow him to play, but put an especially high premium on Derek not being hit?

It has to be #3, right? Or maybe it doesn’t have to be, but it is more likely, isn’t it? He looks stiff.  He hasn’t had the elusiveness that served him so well last year.  Isn’t the more likely explanation for its absence (and the absence of other positive parts of his game) the injury rather than Downing scheming these things out of existence?

I think Derek’s play has also been effected by Downing’s admittedly suspect play calling and the overall disappointment/failure (?) of the Marshawn experiment and the run game in general.  And to the extent I am right about the injury, it’s on Downing to create game plans that work around it, to the extent that’s even possible.

I can probably be talked back on the Downing is bad and needs to go bus.  But after last night, a much simpler explanation presented itself.  Maybe Downing isn’t the incompetent that everyone mistakenly thought was a genius, but perhaps our QB who miraculously came back from a six week injury after two weeks isn’t the same guy yet?   And that’s changed everything.

1 does seem plausible though. Carr has always had a very quick release and due to the history of watching his brother take massive hits its probably contributed to him getting the ball out earlier. I think the broken leg and fractured back both contribute to this fear because both happened behind the line of scrimmage. I don't see Carr waiting for plays to develop anymore, he doesn't step up in the pocket like Elite QBs do. It's like he counts to 2 and dumps the ball off. I will say though, when the Raiders threw down field they where better. Luckily for Carr they don't have to play Suh every week....although they do have to sill play Von, Hali/Houston, Phily and SD's D line...so this team aint out of the woods yet.

[808sinfour4time]

5 hours ago, Chali21 said:

1 does seem plausible though. Carr has always had a very quick release and due to the history of watching his brother take massive hits its probably contributed to him getting the ball out earlier. I think the broken leg and fractured back both contribute to this fear because both happened behind the line of scrimmage. I don't see Carr waiting for plays to develop anymore, he doesn't step up in the pocket like Elite QBs do. It's like he counts to 2 and dumps the ball off. I will say though, when the Raiders threw down field they where better. Luckily for Carr they don't have to play Suh every week....although they do have to sill play Von, Hali/Houston, Phily and SD's D line...so this team aint out of the woods yet.

I think we agree that something is wrong with both the offense and Derek’s execution.  But your use of the word “anymore” suggests that we also agree that Derek used to wait for plays to develop and his propensity to seemingly count to two and dump the ball off is a somewhat recent development.  He did the former and wasn’t always doing the latter for parts of 2015 and almost all of 2016. That Derek Carr happened!  We saw it!

So something’s changed and the “he’s just skittish” and “he’s afraid because of his brother” explanations don’t really work because of his career timeline.  Those were the knocks on him pre-draft and we’ve seen him not be those things in the NFL.  I’m not saying he’s perfect, but last year he did hang in the pocket and deliver strikes, and he did extend plays with his feet by leaving the pocket (and was amazingly elusive).  (I do agree that he could work on his movement within the pocket.)

So something is up and what’s the culprit?  Well, dispatching Musgrave and promoting Downing could be one.  And I really thought those two decisions were the main culprits until watching the game last night.  

There were parts of the game where it seemed as if Derek wasn’t so much unwilling to extend plays as he was just physically incapable of it, particularly by escaping the pocket and relying on his feet and elusiveness.  And why would that be?  I’m sure there is some fear of getting hit (but I think that’s mostly related to the potential consequences of being hit (further injury) rather than some weird dissipation of his “toughness”). 

And it just doesn't seem likely that Downing, who knows Carr's strengths include his mobility and his judiciousness in employing that mobility, would scheme offense in which Carr is turned into a quick-release statue in the pocket, unless it's out of some temporary necessity.

I think that while his back is healed enough to put him on the field, it isn’t healed enough to get the full Derek Carr experience yet.  He’s not just afraid of getting hit and re-injury, he’s literally still injured.  

I’m starting to think this is a more plausible explanation for the offense’s woes than that the entire organization completely failed in their assessments of Downing.  We did think Carr would be out six weeks and he was back in two.  That's great, but it does seem to increase the odds that we're not getting Derek at 100%. Here's a quick thought experiment relevant to our assessment of Downing: Do we think Sean McVay would look as good as he does if Goff had fractured his back in week 4 and come back in week 6? Especially if there had been a week-long consensus that Goff would be out until week 10?  I don't.  And I think that's true even though Goff probably isn't as important to the Rams' offense as Derek is to ours.

Of course, I could be completely wrong.  Admittedly it’s entirely possible Carr is in perfect health, and Downing really is an emperor without clothes.  But that just doesn’t seem like the simplest or most correct interpretation of events anymore.  At least not to me.

[NightTrainLane]

1 hour ago, 808sinfour4time said:

I think we agree that something is wrong with both the offense and Derek’s execution.  But your use of the word “anymore” suggests that we also agree that Derek used to wait for plays to develop and his propensity to seemingly count to two and dump the ball off is a somewhat recent development.  He did the former and wasn’t always doing the latter for parts of 2015 and almost all of 2016. That Derek Carr happened!  We saw it!

So something’s changed and the “he’s just skittish” and “he’s afraid because of his brother” explanations don’t really work because of his career timeline.  Those were the knocks on him pre-draft and we’ve seen him not be those things in the NFL.  I’m not saying he’s perfect, but last year he did hang in the pocket and deliver strikes, and he did extend plays with his feet by leaving the pocket (and was amazingly elusive).  (I do agree that he could work on his movement within the pocket.)

So something is up and what’s the culprit?  Well, dispatching Musgrave and promoting Downing could be one.  And I really thought those two decisions were the main culprits until watching the game last night.  

There were parts of the game where it seemed as if Derek wasn’t so much unwilling to extend plays as he was just physically incapable of it, particularly by escaping the pocket and relying on his feet and elusiveness.  And why would that be?  I’m sure there is some fear of getting hit (but I think that’s mostly related to the potential consequences of being hit (further injury) rather than some weird dissipation of his “toughness”). 

And it just doesn't seem likely that Downing, who knows Carr's strengths include his mobility and his judiciousness in employing that mobility, would scheme offense in which Carr is turned into a quick-release statue in the pocket, unless it's out of some temporary necessity.

I think that while his back is healed enough to put him on the field, it isn’t healed enough to get the full Derek Carr experience yet.  He’s not just afraid of getting hit and re-injury, he’s literally still injured.  

I’m starting to think this is a more plausible explanation for the offense’s woes than that the entire organization completely failed in their assessments of Downing.  We did think Carr would be out six weeks and he was back in two.  That's great, but it does seem to increase the odds that we're not getting Derek at 100%. Here's a quick thought experiment relevant to our assessment of Downing: Do we think Sean McVay would look as good as he does if Goff had fractured his back in week 4 and come back in week 6? Especially if there had been a week-long consensus that Goff would be out until week 10?  I don't.  And I think that's true even though Goff probably isn't as important to the Rams' offense as Derek is to ours.

Of course, I could be completely wrong.  Admittedly it’s entirely possible Carr is in perfect health, and Downing really is an emperor without clothes.  But that just doesn’t seem like the simplest or most correct interpretation of events anymore.  At least not to me.

Got damn... The is the most thorough and fleshed out explanation of one point that I've seen on this forum in a bit. Bravo sir!

Oh and I agree.

[Chali21]

2 hours ago, 808sinfour4time said:

I think we agree that something is wrong with both the offense and Derek’s execution.  But your use of the word “anymore” suggests that we also agree that Derek used to wait for plays to develop and his propensity to seemingly count to two and dump the ball off is a somewhat recent development.  He did the former and wasn’t always doing the latter for parts of 2015 and almost all of 2016. That Derek Carr happened!  We saw it!

So something’s changed and the “he’s just skittish” and “he’s afraid because of his brother” explanations don’t really work because of his career timeline.  Those were the knocks on him pre-draft and we’ve seen him not be those things in the NFL.  I’m not saying he’s perfect, but last year he did hang in the pocket and deliver strikes, and he did extend plays with his feet by leaving the pocket (and was amazingly elusive).  (I do agree that he could work on his movement within the pocket.)

So something is up and what’s the culprit?  Well, dispatching Musgrave and promoting Downing could be one.  And I really thought those two decisions were the main culprits until watching the game last night.  

There were parts of the game where it seemed as if Derek wasn’t so much unwilling to extend plays as he was just physically incapable of it, particularly by escaping the pocket and relying on his feet and elusiveness.  And why would that be?  I’m sure there is some fear of getting hit (but I think that’s mostly related to the potential consequences of being hit (further injury) rather than some weird dissipation of his “toughness”). 

And it just doesn't seem likely that Downing, who knows Carr's strengths include his mobility and his judiciousness in employing that mobility, would scheme offense in which Carr is turned into a quick-release statue in the pocket, unless it's out of some temporary necessity.

I think that while his back is healed enough to put him on the field, it isn’t healed enough to get the full Derek Carr experience yet.  He’s not just afraid of getting hit and re-injury, he’s literally still injured.  

I’m starting to think this is a more plausible explanation for the offense’s woes than that the entire organization completely failed in their assessments of Downing.  We did think Carr would be out six weeks and he was back in two.  That's great, but it does seem to increase the odds that we're not getting Derek at 100%. Here's a quick thought experiment relevant to our assessment of Downing: Do we think Sean McVay would look as good as he does if Goff had fractured his back in week 4 and come back in week 6? Especially if there had been a week-long consensus that Goff would be out until week 10?  I don't.  And I think that's true even though Goff probably isn't as important to the Rams' offense as Derek is to ours.

Of course, I could be completely wrong.  Admittedly it’s entirely possible Carr is in perfect health, and Downing really is an emperor without clothes.  But that just doesn’t seem like the simplest or most correct interpretation of events anymore.  At least not to me.

You could be right, and I really hope you are because they need him to play back at that 2016 level if they want to get to 6-1.

[808sinfour4time]

4 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

Got damn... The is the most thorough and fleshed out explanation of one point that I've seen on this forum in a bit. Bravo sir!

Oh and I agree.

Well, um, when it comes to me, everyone here should feel free to use this as needed: 

 

[Rolni]

12 hours ago, 808sinfour4time said:

I think we agree that something is wrong with both the offense and Derek’s execution.  But your use of the word “anymore” suggests that we also agree that Derek used to wait for plays to develop and his propensity to seemingly count to two and dump the ball off is a somewhat recent development.  He did the former and wasn’t always doing the latter for parts of 2015 and almost all of 2016. That Derek Carr happened!  We saw it!

So something’s changed and the “he’s just skittish” and “he’s afraid because of his brother” explanations don’t really work because of his career timeline.  Those were the knocks on him pre-draft and we’ve seen him not be those things in the NFL.  I’m not saying he’s perfect, but last year he did hang in the pocket and deliver strikes, and he did extend plays with his feet by leaving the pocket (and was amazingly elusive).  (I do agree that he could work on his movement within the pocket.)

So something is up and what’s the culprit?  Well, dispatching Musgrave and promoting Downing could be one.  And I really thought those two decisions were the main culprits until watching the game last night.  

There were parts of the game where it seemed as if Derek wasn’t so much unwilling to extend plays as he was just physically incapable of it, particularly by escaping the pocket and relying on his feet and elusiveness.  And why would that be?  I’m sure there is some fear of getting hit (but I think that’s mostly related to the potential consequences of being hit (further injury) rather than some weird dissipation of his “toughness”). 

And it just doesn't seem likely that Downing, who knows Carr's strengths include his mobility and his judiciousness in employing that mobility, would scheme offense in which Carr is turned into a quick-release statue in the pocket, unless it's out of some temporary necessity.

I think that while his back is healed enough to put him on the field, it isn’t healed enough to get the full Derek Carr experience yet.  He’s not just afraid of getting hit and re-injury, he’s literally still injured.  

I’m starting to think this is a more plausible explanation for the offense’s woes than that the entire organization completely failed in their assessments of Downing.  We did think Carr would be out six weeks and he was back in two.  That's great, but it does seem to increase the odds that we're not getting Derek at 100%. Here's a quick thought experiment relevant to our assessment of Downing: Do we think Sean McVay would look as good as he does if Goff had fractured his back in week 4 and come back in week 6? Especially if there had been a week-long consensus that Goff would be out until week 10?  I don't.  And I think that's true even though Goff probably isn't as important to the Rams' offense as Derek is to ours.

Of course, I could be completely wrong.  Admittedly it’s entirely possible Carr is in perfect health, and Downing really is an emperor without clothes.  But that just doesn’t seem like the simplest or most correct interpretation of events anymore.  At least not to me.

Something is clearly wrong. I really hope you are right, however I'm not sure.

The Washington game was before Carr's injury and he had one of his worst games. Our Offense was struggling big time.

Downing seems to be outschemed and he seems to be unable to build up a gameplan. It seems like he just put plays after each other.

Our run blocking regressed, our WR's have even more drops and Carr seems lost at times. Part of that could be because of the injury for sure, but I don't see the plan in place.

Don't see that our OC prepares and plans like he has a not 100% QB in place. Can't see the clever concepts to take pressure off of Carr. Our offensive plays are so basic...and the WR routes have nothing to do with Carr's back. That fact that we have WR's running the same routes, that we can't use a guy like Cooper creatively, that we can't really use our TE's and RB's consistently in the passing game all screem bad OC work to me.

Cooper had 1 good game, Cook had 1 or 2 good games, Richard also had 1 or 2 good ones...this offense is way too inconsistent.
We force these spread out shutgun plays, but we then use zero creativity with the route concepts.

If Carr is really still bothered, I could understand the shutgun formations, which could give some reason for our struggling running game, but still overall Downing seems lost out there.

Way to predictable...run, run, short pass is killing us. We throw so many short balls, when it is obvious that Carr can let it fly even with that back.

I hope you are right! I hope we see a drastical improvement come december, when Carr's injury should be fully healed. A strong december run could prove you right and could save Downing's job. Untill I see that I remain skeptical about his abilities as an OC.

[Nightmare]

Half the season down and we still have no interceptions.

That's utterly abysmal. For that reason alone I'd punt Kevin Norton into the bay right now.

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

1 hour ago, Nightmare said:

Half the season down and we still have no interceptions.

That's utterly abysmal. For that reason alone I'd punt Kevin Norton into the bay right now.

Is that Ken's brother?