Let's talk problems CALMLY

[MacReady]

Just now, TheOnlyThing said:

One trip to Green Bay and Dom and the Pack D will cure what ails any offensive coordinator.

This is true, but don't you see how the way you present your arguments get old?  You'd probably be ten times more tolerable if you brought a little levity to what you say here and also try to focus on positive things once in a while or look to the future and provide thoughts on how things can be fixed or bright spots on the horizon.  Not trying to be a jerk, but you'd be much more pleasant to talk with if you changed things up a bit.  Just some advice. 

Back on topic, the Ravens are going to put up 30 points on this team and get the confidence boost they need to compete for a playoff spot and another Flacco playoffs opportunity to fool that team into keeping him. 

[MacReady]

Just now, Green19 said:

The issue with the defense is simple, it’s too complex for its own good.

I've brought this up a BUNCH of times and a lot of people want to dispute this fact.  When you've got veterans like Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson and Nick Collins covering for guys like rookie Sam Shields, you're getting a billion turnovers and causing quarterbacks to hate themselves.  When you've got a down year from your safety and an injury year from your other safety and you've got young players like King and Randall and no pass rush... You get the 23rd ranked scoring defense after starting the year giving up only 9 points. 

[PACKRULE]

2 hours ago, pollino14 said:

Thanks

When four is giving you nothing, you have to manufacture it somehow. 

What i find tough with Capers though is when he decides to send a package it's this wonderful nitro package or daytona package or what the heck ever. Watching any 3rd and long last night and we have 5 LB's out there and one DL. So running 3 lb's up the middle faster doesn't seem to work against good NFL centers/guards.  Our smaller guys got eaten up all night. I"m sure that OL loved having those little wee 240 pounders coming at them. Lang must have had a good chuckle after the game.

The DB blitzes and such were good and i've always liked them. But the zone blitz has changed from years ago. Dom's tips his hands and it seems that 3rd and long means rush 6 and let one guy open 13 yards downfield. Our DB play overall was good last night we just couldn't get home at all no one won a match up. To me that is on Dom right there he's either not growing these guys or motivating them at all.

I'm on the fire Dom bandwagon now. Just too much of the same thing over and over. I do believe TT has provided plenty of talent on D and it's just not being used right or motivated properly. i think Dom needs to go and either move someone up, what's the worst that can happen we flounder again wow so more of the same.

with that said I love MM and I think he runs a clean program but at the same time i think he's getting a bit long in the tooth and it may be time to clean house and start over. I"m on the fence about this one as sometimes he's brilliant, but to be one of the greatest coaches he needs to be able to win with a lesser QB and well that doesn't seem to happen or hasn't happened.

MM make me a believer and bring us a win and a new DC.

Still a fan always a fan

[SpeightTheVillain]

3 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I've brought this up a BUNCH of times and a lot of people want to dispute this fact.  When you've got veterans like Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson and Nick Collins covering for guys like rookie Sam Shields, you're getting a billion turnovers and causing quarterbacks to hate themselves.  When you've got a down year from your safety and an injury year from your other safety and you've got young players like King and Randall and no pass rush... You get the 23rd ranked scoring defense after starting the year giving up only 9 points. 

I am one of those people. It doesn't matter how simple or complex the schemes are when people just don't win their one on ones. Philosophically I agree with Dom. Some of the worst defenses in the league run Tampa 2 or Cover 3. Some of the best do too. Same goes for the Dom scheme. I'm not defending him just saying that I'm not sure any D coordinator can scheme sacks with this team if Dom can't. 

As for the problems. We can all agree the Pass Rush is the main problem. Run D has been decent. Secondary hasn't been good but this is tied to the Pass Rush as well.

What are the solutions though? Will a mid to high pick really fix everything? Who are options in Free Agency?

As for the offense, we were running at a pretty efficient and high rate with Rodgers. I think most of the blame lays on the bad QB play. I agree that Cobb is overpaid/underperforming, and Jordy isn't who he used to be. I think this is fixed more easily as we already have pieces and just need another mid round receiver to get good. 

[Green19]

8 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I've brought this up a BUNCH of times and a lot of people want to dispute this fact.  When you've got veterans like Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson and Nick Collins covering for guys like rookie Sam Shields, you're getting a billion turnovers and causing quarterbacks to hate themselves.  When you've got a down year from your safety and an injury year from your other safety and you've got young players like King and Randall and no pass rush... You get the 23rd ranked scoring defense after starting the year giving up only 9 points. 

The funny thing is I think early on it probably wasn’t that complex, but the last 5 years... it’s bad. You want to be able to deal with injuries and young players? Have one set scheme. Tell them just do this and this is how these guys are going to try and beat you.

Players can then focus on just playing. Josh Jones is probably the best physical talent on defense. We are getting nothing because the defense is literally too much for a rookie.

Haha is regressing because one injury happens and we can trust someone else so Haha now needs to be put in positions that will hurt his growth.

Plus these schemes only work if one guy stays healthy. Nitro works if Burnett is healthy, plus Burnett isn’t a given to resign this offseason. Have your bread and butter, then build alittle off that.

They need a new DC that will come in and simplify this mess. Because Green Bay is just being too cute with it now. 

[MacReady]

Just now, SpeightTheVillain said:

As for the problems. We can all agree the Pass Rush is the main problem. Run D has been decent. Secondary hasn't been good but this is tied to the Pass Rush as well.

Good defensive coordinators overcome this lack of talent.  If a scheme is as complicated as Dom's, he should be able to SCHEME better pass rush.  Dom Capers is considered this mastermind coordinator and he can't stimulate the pass rush at all.  Perry, Fackrell, Matthews, Daniels, Clark, Lowry, Biegel... There's more talent there than the Patriots have even if you literally give Fackrell to the Patriots. 

Dom is responsible.  Either in his scheme or getting to his players.  It's always an excuse.  No corners in 2016.  No pass rush this year.  No speed in 2015.  Too old, no ILB in 2014.  No safeties in 2013.  No safeties in 2012.  What in the FRUCK was his excuse in 2011 when he had Williams, Woodson, Matthews, Bishop, Zombo, Walden, Burnett, House, Peprah, Shields, Green, Picket, Raji...?  His worst season was his second most talented season.

Next year what will happen if there are injuries to a certain group?  There's always an excuse and the one constant has been Capers.

People need to quit defending him.  Scheme or personality, something is broken with Capers and he can't fix it. 

[Green19]

7 minutes ago, SpeightTheVillain said:

I am one of those people. It doesn't matter how simple or complex the schemes are when people just don't win their one on ones. Philosophically I agree with Dom. Some of the worst defenses in the league run Tampa 2 or Cover 3. Some of the best do too. Same goes for the Dom scheme. I'm not defending him just saying that I'm not sure any D coordinator can scheme sacks with this team if Dom can't. 

I would only argue that having multiple schemes and a high level of complex hurts players from focusing on their one on ones. If I’m just worried about lining up down to down and making sure this safety knows to pick this guy up...  I can’t focus on just being great at zone or man etc.

Plus if you go with a set scheme the complexities comes from, hey when they do this classic Tampa 2 beater just make this adjustment. Now granted it all goes with talent, but again it would be easier to find talent because you focus on a few skill sets... not making sure they do everything well.

[packfanfb]

24 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

This is true, but don't you see how the way you present your arguments get old?  You'd probably be ten times more tolerable if you brought a little levity to what you say here and also try to focus on positive things once in a while or look to the future and provide thoughts on how things can be fixed or bright spots on the horizon.  Not trying to be a jerk, but you'd be much more pleasant to talk with if you changed things up a bit.  Just some advice. 

Back on topic, the Ravens are going to put up 30 points on this team and get the confidence boost they need to compete for a playoff spot and another Flacco playoffs opportunity to fool that team into keeping him. 

Truth hurts sometimes Horizon. Onlything is one of the few posters that simply keeps it real on here. Its not all rosy all the time, and its always excuse after excuse after excuse for this defense and Dom. The way the defense is playing should not surprise anyone in this forum if you've watched the Packers the last 6 years. Its always been there, ARod is simply the best lipstick money can buy. Some people on here have been pointing these defensive issues out for YEARS. Only now are others beginning to listen and realizing it's not trolling, it's reality.

[GalenaPackFan]

I posted about the gap between Dom's complex scheme and utilizing a draft and develop philosophy about three years ago. I was roundly ignored. 

I've given it more thought over that time and I think it also explains why Dom has a drop off in performance over time. When a new program is installed, even the vets get a simpler version and then build on it. As the complexity is added, the performance goes down, with odd times of the right players 'getting it' and making it hum. Then the team is right back to inserting young players who struggle with the complexity. I think it also shows that a 'stripped down' version of Dom's schemes will work, perhaps because the players are more able to use their physical skills with less thinking/depending on complex communication.

If someone shows that I'm wrong with how new schemes are installed, I'll be the first to thank them for educating me. 

 

[SpeightTheVillain]

4 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Good defensive coordinators overcome this lack of talent.  If a scheme is as complicated as Dom's, he should be able to SCHEME better pass rush.  Dom Capers is considered this mastermind coordinator and he can't stimulate the pass rush at all.  Perry, Fackrell, Matthews, Daniels, Clark, Lowry, Biegel... There's more talent there than the Patriots have even if you literally give Fackrell to the Patriots. 

Dom is responsible.  Either in his scheme or getting to his players.  It's always an excuse.  No corners in 2016.  No pass rush this year.  No speed in 2015.  Too old, no ILB in 2014.  No safeties in 2013.  No safeties in 2012.  What in the FRUCK was his excuse in 2011 when he had Williams, Woodson, Matthews, Bishop, Zombo, Walden, Burnett, House, Peprah, Shields, Green, Picket, Raji...?  His worst season was his second most talented season.

Next year what will happen if there are injuries to a certain group?  There's always an excuse and the one constant has been Capers.

People need to quit defending him.  Scheme or personality, something is broken with Capers and he can't fix it. 

Is there though?

Based on what? Certainly not production. 

Like I said, I'm not defending Dom. All I said was philosophically I agree it is better to attack and confuse an offense then sit back and react. That's my opinion.

What I am saying is our Defense has bigger problems then who is calling the plays. No-one can win a one on one and get to the QB. 

 

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

Only now are others beginning to listen and realizing it's not trolling, it's reality.

No, it's still trolling when literally all you say is "Dom sucks, nobody acknowledges it, we're persecuted for being negative." 

There's a very small number of people here who like Dom Capers.  Almost everybody who "defends" him is basically just saying nothing is going to happen this year anyway, it could be worse, or it could get better. 

If somebody came on here and literally only posted, "Dom sucks," four times a day in those exact words, they'd be banned because they'd be trolling.  When every single post can be boiled down to "Dom sucks" in more words, it gets old.  Especially when they're not offering alternatives or talking about literally anything else. 

I'd be willing to bet that 95% of TOT's last 200 posts would boil down to "Capers sucks," "McCarthy sucks," or "Thompson sucks."  Other people here talk about how exciting Aaron Jones has been this year.  The future of our receiving corps.  King's promise, Randall's up and down season, Clinton-Dix playing poorly, Jahri Evans being so good...

Even you've managed to point out crap plays by players, and I think even you've managed to compliment players.  There are some people here who post things that could be boiled down to three people sucking, and that gets old. 

[MacReady]

Just now, SpeightTheVillain said:

Is there though?

Based on what? Certainly not production.

Career production absolutely.  Our defensive line is about twice as good.  Clearly, based on the fact that they just signed the one guy we cut this season. 

Clay Matthews at however old he is is still a better, smarter, more valuable player than all but maybe one player of theirs that's healthy right now.  Nick Perry was capable of, what, 8 sacks with a club last year?  I think that's more than their entire outside linebackers have in their careers in New England right now. 

I bet even Patriots fans would agree that our healthy front seven is much more talented than their healthy front seven right now. 

[SpeightTheVillain]

5 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Career production absolutely.  Our defensive line is about twice as good.  Clearly, based on the fact that they just signed the one guy we cut this season. 

Clay Matthews at however old he is is still a better, smarter, more valuable player than all but maybe one player of theirs that's healthy right now.  Nick Perry was capable of, what, 8 sacks with a club last year?  I think that's more than their entire outside linebackers have in their careers in New England right now. 

I bet even Patriots fans would agree that our healthy front seven is much more talented than their healthy front seven right now. 

I agree that Daniels & Perry are better then anything they have but we have no depth.

Fackrell sucks. Biegel has proven nothing. Clay would be better playing less snaps. Those two can't play 100% of the snaps. Lowery has been a disappointment. Clark is a + player but brings nothing rushing the passer.

I'm all for firing Dom. Just hope we don't completely change the philosophy.

The key is we need better depth. Period. It's not like the mechanics of pass rushing change based on the scheme. 4 down lineman, 3 down lineman, either way someone has got to win. 

 

 

 

[Green19]

I think this defense needs 3 things:

• a good pass rusher rotation (they need to double dip early in them draft to solve this)

• another potential starting CB (again addressing this early in the draft)

• a simple consistent scheme.

Green Bay has good safeties, a good ILB, good Dlinemen. The issue is what this defense is built around to be the stars of the defense... we don’t have. OLBs (pass rushers) and CBs.

At their best they had Woodson/Shields and a young Matthews.

Two of those guys were defensive players of the year candidates. Now are stars are two DTs in a defense that doesn’t really position them to be stars. A second year ILB that is coming on and Good-great safety group.

They need to go something like:

1st round: OLB

2nd round: CB

3rd round: OLB

And hope Aaron can make something out of less on the offense.

[RoellPreston88]

3 minutes ago, Green19 said:

I think this defense needs 3 things:

• a good pass rusher rotation (they need to double dip early in them draft to solve this)

• another potential starting CB (again addressing this early in the draft)

• a simple consistent scheme.

Green Bay has good safeties, a good ILB, good Dlinemen. The issue is what this defense is built around to be the stars of the defense... we don’t have. OLBs (pass rushers) and CBs.

At their best they had Woodson/Shields and a young Matthews.

Two of those guys were defensive players of the year candidates. Now are stars are two DTs in a defense that doesn’t really position them to be stars. A second year ILB that is coming on and Good-great safety group.

They need to go something like:

1st round: OLB

2nd round: CB

3rd round: OLB

And hope Aaron can make something out of less on the offense.

a third round OLB is going to be help to make the defense much better. at least not for a couple of years.