2022 Off-Season Thread: The Dead szn...

[MOSteelers56]

14 hours ago, bigben07MVP said:

especially after that Pickett quote.

What’d he say?

[bigben07MVP]

31 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

What’d he say?

It’s not an egregious quote but to me just shows a complete lack of self awareness/maturity to say something like that.

[MOSteelers56]

47 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

It’s not an egregious quote but to me just shows a complete lack of self awareness/maturity to say something like that.

Woof, yeah not an awesome look for Chase but he’s a kid. I’ve still got faith he’s going to be really good this year.
 

I see Chase as a little like Gronk. He’s maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he’s freakishly athletic, and seems to love playing the game. Sure he has to be schemed open a little(I’m not taking anything away from Gronk, but even great TEs are kind of scheme dependent), but now we have a scheme/QB that can do that. If we use Chase like a chess piece like we should, he can be a massive producer. Guys with his size and speed don’t need to be nuanced route runners. They need to exploit mismatches and get hit in space. Chase doesn’t really need to know the playbook like an encyclopedia. Not every player is Peyton. I see Chase as kind of a “match me up with a safety and watch me beat his *** and score a TD” kind of player. This rant wasn’t really directed at you @bigben07MVP, just sort of happened that way. 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, Chieferific said:

That's a pretty bad analogy

Would it be better if I just say he doesn't play to his size then? He invites too much contact at the catch point because he doesn't know how to use his body or align himself in order to make 6'4 matter. He sure does make a really nice highlight reel grab occasionally, but it's the lack of detail that doesn't allow him to be consistent. Also the lack of detail that forces some of the catches to be highlight rather than making them more pedestrian. 

Claypool had two pretty awesome catches last year against T. White and Patrick Peterson on the sideline on back shoulder throws....but he let 5'11 180 White bully him off the line and force him to the rail rather than Chase being in control off that press to work inside out for room to extend away from the defender. PP is bigger for sure, but you are still talking 3 inches and 30 lbs. PP was in great position to make a play on the ball, Claypool just made a better play at the catch point...but PP owned that rep. That's not a consistent way to win.

So that's what I mean when I say he plays like he is 5'10. When a guy 5 inches shorter and 40 lbs lighter moves you where he wants you or can attack your same catch point -- your 6'4 frame means little. He makes catches harder than they need to be.

[warfelg]

We don’t really know the full context of that quote though. Optimistic side: Chase was trying to make a bad joke in showing how good Pickett is and it’s more about where Chase needed to be in a route than lining up in the complete wrong place. I’ve also known of WR coaches who intentionally tell the WRs a different play to test the QB. Wouldn’t be shocked to learn if this is something Tomlin has been looking forward to. 

[bigben07MVP]

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I’ve also known of WR coaches who intentionally tell the WRs a different play to test the QB. Wouldn’t be shocked to learn if this is something Tomlin has been looking forward to. 

Lol that’s a stretch…

Regardless, him not knowing the playbook isn’t even what I’m really getting at, it’s the lack of self awareness to even realize he’s throwing himself under the bus by saying that. It’s the same lack of self awareness he showed celebrating that first down catch against the Vikings and blaming his teammate after.

Again, I don’t think that quote is egregious it just irked me and reinforced the doubts I already had.

[warfelg]

Meh. I couldnt care less. It’s a statement after Mini-camp. Just like the top 3 WR thing. 

[43M]

22 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Not sure I would chalk this up to semantics. I openly disagree with the idea of “wait and see” for tagging. Either you want DJ for the future or you don’t. I see the middle ground you are searching for to be an elimination of value and leverage. If you are trying to extend him and can’t find a price and need to tag? Cool. But I see way to much downside to “wait and see”. 

You see too much downside to "wait and see", but youre okay paying a guy like DJ top 5 WR money?   Im fine with you wanting to keep him, but there are clear and obvious downsides to both scenarios....the preference largely comes down to your thoughts on DJ.    

If you have faith in him....youre probably on board with handing him a bag of money.

If you see him as a glorified WR2....paying him top end WR1 money likely isnt something you support.

Neither outlook is necessarily wrong....but in reality, paying DJ top money is based more on what you believe he COULD be rather than what he ACTUALLY CURRENTLY IS...and I think thats how many teams get in trouble.   

22 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Only reasons I could see for waiting is because you don’t trust Canada or you don’t trust Diontae. Those don’t make for good reasons to stand pat, IMO. 

Personally, I wouldve tried trading him when I saw what the WR market was like.   Outside of having a gamechanger like Antonio Brown or Stefon Diggs, I would trade pretty much any WR for a 1st rounder.

However, if it comes down to paying him top 10 WR pay RIGHT NOW or "wait and see", I will take the latter without hesitation.  And it has nothing to do with DJs fit in Canada's offense and everything to do with how much I believe DJ brings to an offense.

Do I believe DJ is a quality weapon to have on offense?   100%.

Do I believe he is a bonafide WR1 that takes an offense to another level and forces opposing defenses to alter their gameplans?   Not even remotely close.

[Dcash4]

25 minutes ago, 43M said:

You see too much downside to "wait and see", but youre okay paying a guy like DJ top 5 WR money?

To be honest, I put no stock in the idea of “top 5 or 10 money”. Do you have Justin Jefferson as the 53rd best receiver? Me neither. Did you know DJ doesn’t even rank in the top 100 of receivers based on AAV? As long as dudes are paid reasonably based against their respective peers, I'm good. So yes, I’m good with the DJ extension (especially as the Steelers do one year guarantees).

A lot of your comment is stuff I have said myself in past comments, so I won’t go back on it. But I just don’t understand the wait and see. Serious question: is one year going to change your opinion of 3 years of DJ? Likely not, right? But what that one year can do is destroy his current value or raise it while eliminating your leverage. What’s the likelihood you “win” this decision? 

Right now I think the league would value him at pick 50-64 in 2023. A comp pick, at best, is pick 97 in 2024. Which of those would you choose? 

You guys are troubled making a decision on $20M for DJ. If you end up tagging him because he was solid, that numbers a distant thing of the past. With guaranteed money in his pocket, there’s no reason to take less (talking $17M raise this season on his current cash flow) and will, likely, ask for more than one year guaranteed because any other form of contract doesn’t make sense. So, it’s unlikely we find a long term deal. Then we are back to the question above, just another year delayed. 

I don’t understand the middle ground. Move forward like you want him (falling back on the tag if negotiations break) or move on from him. If you are having trouble understanding his fit or his value…you already have your answer - So max his value now. 

[CKSteeler]

On 7/1/2022 at 7:37 PM, Dcash4 said:

Serious question: is one year going to change your opinion of 3 years of DJ?

For a guy going into his 4th year in the league...yes? While I don't think Johnson is that guy and I don't think the Steelers QB/offensive situation would allow him to become that guy even if he was over the next few seasons, I'd just say go take a look at what happened with Antonio Brown entering his fourth year in the league. He went from a good, not great WR (who obviously flashed some impressive talent) to going on one of the greatest runs in NFL history.

The Brown example is interesting when it comes to Johnson because the Steelers bet on Brown. Paid him more than he was probably worth at the time, a contract that didn't have much guaranteed to it if memory serves correctly, and it paid off handsomely. They wanted to keep one of their young WR's. So, you could point to that and say do the same with Johnson.

I think some people have trouble adjusting to growing cap numbers. $20 million is what you are going to pay for a good WR in today's market, and it's only going to go up. So, unless Johnson is asking for Hill money, that's reasonable and in a year or two no one is going to really blink because the cap will have risen significantly. 

My main concern goes back to the offense just being a big question mark at best right now, and what sort of team this is likely going to be over the next few seasons. They've also spent draft capital on giving themselves an insurance policy and still have claypool (I have more faith in Johnson than claypool at this point - the latter is a complete do not sign for me). 

They're going to want to gear this offense around the running game and Harris. They're hoping to transition to a young QB at the same time. They'll be falling back more on the defense (though, any number of things could happen to change the plan, some good and some bad). I'd just rather spend my money on the OL and defense unless I'm talking about a special talent at WR. I don't think Johnson is going to be that guy, but he could very well prove otherwise in year 4. Brown did.

But then I look around the league, at a team like the Rams for instance...and really, if you are smart, you can find ways to work the cap to make it all work.

I lean towards just paying Johnson barring some unreasonable demands on his part, if the guarantees are low. The cap is going up significantly. Steelers are projected to have over $30 million in cap space right now with no major pieces hitting FA. They can afford the risk and it could pay off in a major way.

[CKSteeler]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:38 PM, 43M said:

You see too much downside to "wait and see", but youre okay paying a guy like DJ top 5 WR money?   Im fine with you wanting to keep him, but there are clear and obvious downsides to both scenarios....the preference largely comes down to your thoughts on DJ. 

In two years, $20 million a year for a WR probably won't even be top 10-15 money at the position. And who is the team losing out on by paying him that? 

Edited July 5, 2022 by CKSteeler

[August4th]

training camp just 3 weeks away 👀 probably the most I've been anticipating TC reports due to all the young faces on the offense  + other tidbits like Bush+ Jacks working together, Canada + flores influences in coaching

Edited July 5, 2022 by August4th

[warfelg]

16 hours ago, August4th said:

training camp just 3 weeks away 👀 probably the most I've been anticipating TC reports due to all the young faces on the offense  + other tidbits like Bush+ Jacks working together, Canada + flores influences in coaching

I feel like this is the first time since Tomlins rookie year that TC doesn’t feel like a formality. 
 

You got the QB situation. Trubisky trying to solidify the QB1 role, Pickett learning, and Mason’s situation. I doubt Mason makes it into the season with the team, but I can’t see Pickett and Chris O being QB2 and QB3; so I want to see if a team that has a more mobile 2/3 but classic pocket passing QB1 would do a 2 for 1 swap. 
 

The DB situation is interesting. We have 3 positional flexible CBs and 3 starting quality safeties. I’m curious if there’s a Wallace/Witherspoon/Sutton rotation or if guys solidify their spot. I also wonder if Kazee pushes Edmunds for playing time or if they end up using Edmunds more as blitzing/coverage LB rotating with Bush as the run down LBer. This would give a better 2-high look with Fitzpatrick and Kazee. Or do they use Kazee and Edmunds for the two high shell and let Fitzpatrick freelance some a la TP?

Lastly watching the WR room is going to be fun. While not our most talented room on paper, it might be one of our most diverse groups yet. Does Pickens push for DJs WR1 role by the end of the year? Will Austin be more effective outside or inside? How does Claypool get used? Will ST or WR play separate Boykins and Gunner O? Gunner O vs Austin on kick/punt returns?

 

———————

Unrelated:

Mark Kaboly seems to insinuate that the DJ contract situation at the moment is a stalemate and that his team wants $20+ mil with high guarantees, Steelers unwilling to touch $20mil AAV number. 

[DR43]

My current mock draft:

Round 1: Noah Sewell ILB Oregon

Round 2: Cam Smith CB South Carolina

Round 3: Connor Galvin OT Baylor

Round 4: Zach Frazier OC West Virginia

Round 6: Myles Murphy DT North Carolina

Round 7: A.T. Perry WR Wake Forest

[43M]

3 hours ago, DR43 said:

My current mock draft:

Round 1: Noah Sewell ILB Oregon

Round 2: Cam Smith CB South Carolina

Round 3: Connor Galvin OT Baylor

Round 4: Zach Frazier OC West Virginia

Round 6: Myles Murphy DT North Carolina

Round 7: A.T. Perry WR Wake Forest

A very possible draft position wise, but I feel like there no way we dont draft at least 1 OL in the first two rounds.  Barring some major development, we need some top end talent on OL to block for our young QB and RB, and you typically arent finding that rd 3 and later.