Pre-draft tidbits

[SimbaWho]

15 hours ago, jrry32 said:

I feel like there are a lot of decent to good WRs in the NFL right now, but the great ones are worth the big money. Tyreek Hill is a game changer. Cooper Kupp is a game changer. Rams don't win the Super Bowl if it's Cooper Kupp who gets injured instead of OBJ.

He just doesn't wanna pay anyone cause he acts like paying someone cripples a team vs paying the "right" people. He even said it in his post and got people to like it about Megatron/Stafford.

Megatron/Stafford lead a Lions team that was the best team you've all ever seen fielded by a Lions team.(2014)[ Most likely. Some are ripper than others.]

That... was not the Lions problem.(those two guys) there problem was surrounding them with quality talent. People act like drafting certain guys and never getting a quality RB really to support them was both their choices... When those guys did have a defense Lions kinda got jobbed in Dallas. Stafford/Megatron held up the team and covered so many mistakes, literally put up NFL records together... then they get vilified by people for being paid.... lol. Like Drafting dumb didn't have a HUGE part or was the major reason of why they didn't take the next step. 

Certain posters dream is to sign a bunch of guys to 2-6 million dollar deals for 1-3 years and act like that'll really work or contain top talent. It's unrealistic, and fits the Fords sell plan where they throw out a product that they never, ever, have to really try and make good. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by SimbaWho

[Nnivolcm]

On 3/26/2022 at 4:19 PM, jrry32 said:

I feel like there are a lot of decent to good WRs in the NFL right now, but the great ones are worth the big money. Tyreek Hill is a game changer. Cooper Kupp is a game changer. Rams don't win the Super Bowl if it's Cooper Kupp who gets injured instead of OBJ.

There are so few WRs that significantly impact more than a few plays a game. I don't think it's a wise allocation of resources to spend so much of the salary cap to players which such little impact. Randy Moss and Megatron kept defensive coordinators awake at nights and demanded extra attention. They were worth big contracts but they were rare players. Hill and Kupp are exceptional players, but like all WRs they depend on the quality of their QB. I have my doubts Hill is going to be as impactful with Tua as he was with Mahomes. He is certainly getting paid like he's going to be. 

I don't know how you can say the Rams lose if Kupp and OBJ switch injury status with any degree of certainty. OBJ was having a pretty good game until he got hurt IIRC and has certainly shown he's capable of being a #1 in the past. 

[jrry32]

7 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

There are so few WRs that significantly impact more than a few plays a game. I don't think it's a wise allocation of resources to spend so much of the salary cap to players which such little impact. Randy Moss and Megatron kept defensive coordinators awake at nights and demanded extra attention. They were worth big contracts but they were rare players. Hill and Kupp are exceptional players, but like all WRs they depend on the quality of their QB. I have my doubts Hill is going to be as impactful with Tua as he was with Mahomes. He is certainly getting paid like he's going to be. 

I think allocation of resources needs to be based on the talent you have, not the talent you want. There aren't a lot of elite/great players in the NFL. When you land one, you should hold on to him. Replace the replaceable guys, and keep the guys who aren't replaceable. The people who concerns themselves over which positions are worth paying are missing the forest for the trees. The real question is which players are worth paying.

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I don't know how you can say the Rams lose if Kupp and OBJ switch injury status with any degree of certainty. OBJ was having a pretty good game until he got hurt IIRC and has certainly shown he's capable of being a #1 in the past.

Because the Rams had a razor-thin margin with Kupp in the game, who is a far better WR than OBJ. OBJ was having a good game because he wasn't getting the defense's attention. It's not a hard call.

[Nnivolcm]

On 3/27/2022 at 6:51 AM, SimbaWho said:

He just doesn't wanna pay anyone cause he acts like paying someone cripples a team vs paying the "right" people. He even said it in his post and got people to like it about Megatron/Stafford.

Megatron/Stafford lead a Lions team that was the best team you've all ever seen fielded by a Lions team.(2014)[ Most likely. Some are ripper than others.]

That... was not the Lions problem.(those two guys) there problem was surrounding them with quality talent. People act like drafting certain guys and never getting a quality RB really to support them was both their choices... When those guys did have a defense Lions kinda got jobbed in Dallas. Stafford/Megatron held up the team and covered so many mistakes, literally put up NFL records together... then they get vilified by people for being paid.... lol. Like Drafting dumb didn't have a HUGE part or was the major reason of why they didn't take the next step. 

Certain posters dream is to sign a bunch of guys to 2-6 million dollar deals for 1-3 years and act like that'll really work or contain top talent. It's unrealistic, and fits the Fords sell plan where they throw out a product that they never, ever, have to really try and make good. 

You're making my points for me. Thanks.

You left off a huge piece of what made the 2014 Lions good and why they were significantly worse in 2015. The Lions had three top two draft picks pre rookie wage scale: Stafford, Megatron, and Suh. The Lions restructured their contracts seemingly every year trying to field a 53 man roster. Suh left after 2014 because the Lions had such bad contracts on the books, and were unable to keep him. The Lions went from a top 2 yds/game and top 3 scoring defense in 2014 to a 18th ranked yds/game and 23rd ranked scoring defense in 2015. 

The worse record in 2015 led directly to the hiring of Bob Quinn who jumped at the first opportunity to hire his favorite idiot and together they returned the Lions to laughing stock status.

[Nnivolcm]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I think allocation of resources needs to be based on the talent you have, not the talent you want. There aren't a lot of elite/great players in the NFL. When you land one, you should hold on to him. Replace the replaceable guys, and keep the guys who aren't replaceable. The people who concerns themselves over which positions are worth paying are missing the forest for the trees. The real question is which players are worth paying.

That's a fair philosophy to building a team. I don't agree with it but I can see how others would. I'm pretty happy with Holmes decision not to sign Kenny Golladay to a big contract despite him being a good WR and before he was hurt in 2020 he was one of the Lions best players. I'm sure there are examples of good and bad decisions for both strategies but Kenny G is just the first example who popped into my head. 

I would rather build a team by making a commitment to building other positions up via draft, trades, FA, the waiver wire, etc. 

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Because the Rams had a razor-thin margin with Kupp in the game, who is a far better WR than OBJ. OBJ was having a good game because he wasn't getting the defense's attention. It's not a hard call.

How many players on the Rams do you feel you could say the same about? For example, with such a razor-thin margin, do the Rams win if Andrew Whitworth goes down instead of OBJ?

[Sllim Pickens]

Usually when star players need big contracts, it usually means the end for a teams run when they hand them out.  Too much of the cap allocated to one player or one position group comes at the expense of others.  The Seahawks were great when Russ was getting 3rd round pick money and not a huge contract.  Then they had to break up their defense in order to pay him.  The Chiefs just moved on from Hill because having so much tied up between QB and WR would cripple their team.  They mad a smart move in not paying him and also got a ton of draft capital back for him.  The Patriots were a dynasty because they never paid the stars when their contracts were up with the exception of very few but it was never WR, CB, S, LB.  Really just OL and DL and Gronk, the best ever to play the position.  Brady taking discounts helped as well.  

Overall, I think the Dolphins and Raiders are dumb to give up so much and the contract as well.  Neither are contenders because of the moves and both will be hurting in a year when young guys need their second contracts.  I was glad when we paid to keep Calvin but it did hurt the team as a whole.  Drafting well and developing talent is a much easier way to sustain success.  The Rams have drafted well in the late rounds and keep losing these solid starters but are replacing them with solid starters.  Once they miss in the late rounds of the draft, they will feel the effects. 

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Nnivolcm said:

That's a fair philosophy to building a team. I don't agree with it but I can see how others would. I'm pretty happy with Holmes decision not to sign Kenny Golladay to a big contract despite him being a good WR and before he was hurt in 2020 he was one of the Lions best players. I'm sure there are examples of good and bad decisions for both strategies but Kenny G is just the first example who popped into my head. 

I would rather build a team by making a commitment to building other positions up via draft, trades, FA, the waiver wire, etc. 

I wouldn't have paid Golladay either. I don't think he's caliber of play matches his contract. But it has nothing to do with his position.

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How many players on the Rams do you feel you could say the same about? For example, with such a razor-thin margin, do the Rams win if Andrew Whitworth goes down instead of OBJ?

Whitworth is a tougher call. If Noteboom was healthy, I'd say we'd have been okay. But with him out, I'm not sure. Alaric Jackson was serviceable filling in for him earlier in the year, but Trey Hendrickson is a different beast. How many players on the Rams? I'd feel confident saying it about Stafford, Kupp, Ramsey, and Donald. That's about it.

Edited March 28, 2022 by jrry32

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Usually when star players need big contracts, it usually means the end for a teams run when they hand them out.  Too much of the cap allocated to one player or one position group comes at the expense of others.  The Seahawks were great when Russ was getting 3rd round pick money and not a huge contract.  Then they had to break up their defense in order to pay him.  The Chiefs just moved on from Hill because having so much tied up between QB and WR would cripple their team.  They mad a smart move in not paying him and also got a ton of draft capital back for him.  The Patriots were a dynasty because they never paid the stars when their contracts were up with the exception of very few but it was never WR, CB, S, LB.  Really just OL and DL and Gronk, the best ever to play the position.  Brady taking discounts helped as well.  

Overall, I think the Dolphins and Raiders are dumb to give up so much and the contract as well.  Neither are contenders because of the moves and both will be hurting in a year when young guys need their second contracts.  I was glad when we paid to keep Calvin but it did hurt the team as a whole.  Drafting well and developing talent is a much easier way to sustain success.  The Rams have drafted well in the late rounds and keep losing these solid starters but are replacing them with solid starters.  Once they miss in the late rounds of the draft, they will feel the effects. 

But the Rams do miss plenty in the late rounds. Sure, if the Rams become completely inept at drafting, they will feel the effects. But that's a function of having an incompetent FO, not a bad strategy.

[Sllim Pickens]

11 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

But the Rams do miss plenty in the late rounds. Sure, if the Rams become completely inept at drafting, they will feel the effects. But that's a function of having an incompetent FO, not a bad strategy.

Agreed, they have missed on some but they have also found numerous competent starters in the mid to late rounds.  Doing that and having those guys on the books for under 1 M is why the Rams can trade for Von Millers and Matt Staffords.   However replacing that elite level talent is going to come at a price soon.  Its an unsustainable method but if you win, then it is a good method.  The true window for this team is about 2 more years, maybe less if they aren't able to replace Whit with a suitable LT, which is harder to do in late rounds. Again, I would do it if it meant the Lions would win a SB even if they sucked for 10 years after, which is a potential outcome when guys age out or contracts renew.  

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Agreed, they have missed on some but they have also found numerous competent starters in the mid to late rounds.  Doing that and having those guys on the books for under 1 M is why the Rams can trade for Von Millers and Matt Staffords.   However replacing that elite level talent is going to come at a price soon.  Its an unsustainable method but if you win, then it is a good method.  The true window for this team is about 2 more years, maybe less if they aren't able to replace Whit with a suitable LT, which is harder to do in late rounds. Again, I would do it if it meant the Lions would win a SB even if they sucked for 10 years after, which is a potential outcome when guys age out or contracts renew.  

We already replaced Whitworth by resigning Joe Noteboom. I think the method is more sustainable than you think. As long as we have a QB, we'll be a threat.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

We already replaced Whitworth by resigning Joe Noteboom. I think the method is more sustainable than you think. As long as we have a QB, we'll be a threat.

We had that same QB and were not a threat. 

And Noteboom is a great young guy to have on the roster and he had a solid year in spot duty last year but he hasn't been good when playing a full season worth of snaps.  So its a risk and he likely will not be as good as Whit. 

[jrry32]

Just now, Sllim Pickens said:

We had that same QB and were not a threat.  

You didn't have Sean McVay or a competent front office.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

You didn't have Sean McVay or a competent front office.

True, but McVay already hinted at retiring young, and that front office and coaching staff will continue to be picked apart.  Point is it takes a lot of things to go right and its hard to sustain in the NFL.  Even great QBs need help.  Mahomes was awful when his OL was bad and they didnt win.  Most teams have a 2/4 year run as contenders until contracts hinder the team.  Some teams always are hanging around the playoffs like the Steelers and Rams because of coaching but they aren't always true contenders for a SB. Even the Chiefs now will be interesting to see how they are now that Mahomes contract will limit their ability to sign talent around him.  

Again I like the Rams strategy, if you hit in the late part of the draft, and have solid starters for cheap, then you can spend on bigger stars to plug into holes.  But it would be even easier if they drafted in earlier rounds and got talent for longer on cheaper deals.  The Rams don't have any bad contracts like HIll or Adams just signed.  Or the QB contract isnt as damaging as Mahomes is. But sending a couple early picks for Miller and then losing him will hurt since those picks are now not impacting the team at all in a positive way. 

[SimbaWho]

2 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

You're making my points for me. Thanks.

You left off a huge piece of what made the 2014 Lions good and why they were significantly worse in 2015. The Lions had three top two draft picks pre rookie wage scale: Stafford, Megatron, and Suh. The Lions restructured their contracts seemingly every year trying to field a 53 man roster. Suh left after 2014 because the Lions had such bad contracts on the books, and were unable to keep him. The Lions went from a top 2 yds/game and top 3 scoring defense in 2014 to a 18th ranked yds/game and 23rd ranked scoring defense in 2015. 

The worse record in 2015 led directly to the hiring of Bob Quinn who jumped at the first opportunity to hire his favorite idiot and together they returned the Lions to laughing stock status.

More non-sense.  

[jrry32]

10 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

We had that same QB and were not a threat. 

And Noteboom is a great young guy to have on the roster and he had a solid year in spot duty last year but he hasn't been good when playing a full season worth of snaps.  So its a risk and he likely will not be as good as Whit. 

Whitworth is a fringe HOFer. We weren't going to find anybody who is as good and affordable. But Noteboom isn't a liability. He started against Tampa in the playoffs and was great. He was solid starting half of the 2020 season. He's an average to above average LT. Very good pass protector and a middling run blocker. We'll be fine with Boom. OLs are about the sum of their parts.