Deshaun Watson is a Cleveland Brown

[Vee-Rex]

Not here to defend @bruceb because he seems entirely too nonchalant about the whole thing...

...

Alright, I'm going to say this despite the optics, because you are all internet strangers and I really think some critical thinking can be applied. I am comfortable in my life with my wife and kid, and the respect I have for women. There was once a time about 9 years ago when I'd victim-blame out my *** and my wife educated me. I recognize the place and societal disadvantages women have in a patriarchal society. With that said...

Consent is one of the most misinterpreted topic to ever exist. While someone doesn't have to verbally say, "NO" for it to be an unconsented encounter, they don't necessarily have to verbally say, "YES" for it to be a consented encounter. While Deshaun's motives and intent seem apparent (though we can't definitely say for sure), the motives and intent of the plaintiffs must also be examined in order to determine whether or not the interactions were consensual.

You cannot examine consent without analyzing the intent of the plaintiff. This is not victim-blaming - this is an attempt to determine, based on the information provided, if the plaintiff is truthful or lying. In QA (I'm not a QA analyst or anything but I do work with them and in IT), it's not unlike a double-sided test. It's often beneficial to analyze both sides (not just Deshaun's) and their stories to help arrive at a determination.

Personally (and this is just my opinion), I like to play the "fidelity" test. If an individual is sexually harassed, assaulted, etc..., then they should not be held accountable or liable to the interaction. It was unconsented. As a husband I would not hold my wife liable, and my wife would not hold me liable in any way. If I can examine a situation and be like, "Okay honey, you got my full support." without questioning the fidelity of my wife, then there is no accountability on her end. But if my wife gives someone a handjob and she was not forced or coerced (from my determination), and she "went along with it" because she thought it would help her business... I don't know, man. Not sure I wouldn't question her loyalty and if that's the case, can we truly declare it to be unconsented?

Not saying that this is how it happened with these women, but it's certainly something that should be accounted for, yes?

These events are sad and disgusting and I empathize with the victims. They do generate interesting philosophical discussion between genuine parties. I could never put myself in the position that Deshaun did because I'm simply not that type of dude. Minimally, he seems to be a predator - in fact, it's what I believe. And I believe he was immoral. However, I don't like to definitively say it was one thing or the other. Once we, as a society, grab the torches and pitchforks based on accusations (yes, 22 and all), we become uncivilized. Opinion/belief does not mean he doesn't have a right to defend himself. Court of public opinion, right?

As for the internet, while I love love love that we reached a point in our society where we don't tolerate bigotry, misogyny, etc... I also hate hate hate that it can often result in a battle of moral high horses. Simply questioning the intent of the plaintiffs, based on the facts provided, does not mean someone is disregarding their story. But man oh man is it difficult to truly breakdown a situation without having someone spewing accusations of being a "rapist supporter". Sure, SOME people show that they simply don't care and just want to root for their hero/team or whatever and these people can **** off, but that's not everyone.

If someone is simply examining it and weighing the facts... it's okay to have a discussion without going, "ZOMG YOU ARE A MONSTER HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF"

My two cents.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

58 minutes ago, Vee-Rex said:

Not here to defend @bruceb because he seems entirely too nonchalant about the whole thing...

...

Alright, I'm going to say this despite the optics, because you are all internet strangers and I really think some critical thinking can be applied. I am comfortable in my life with my wife and kid, and the respect I have for women. There was once a time about 9 years ago when I'd victim-blame out my *** and my wife educated me. I recognize the place and societal disadvantages women have in a patriarchal society. With that said...

Consent is one of the most misinterpreted topic to ever exist. While someone doesn't have to verbally say, "NO" for it to be an unconsented encounter, they don't necessarily have to verbally say, "YES" for it to be a consented encounter. While Deshaun's motives and intent seem apparent (though we can't definitely say for sure), the motives and intent of the plaintiffs must also be examined in order to determine whether or not the interactions were consensual.

You cannot examine consent without analyzing the intent of the plaintiff. This is not victim-blaming - this is an attempt to determine, based on the information provided, if the plaintiff is truthful or lying. In QA (I'm not a QA analyst or anything but I do work with them and in IT), it's not unlike a double-sided test. It's often beneficial to analyze both sides (not just Deshaun's) and their stories to help arrive at a determination.

Personally (and this is just my opinion), I like to play the "fidelity" test. If an individual is sexually harassed, assaulted, etc..., then they should not be held accountable or liable to the interaction. It was unconsented. As a husband I would not hold my wife liable, and my wife would not hold me liable in any way. If I can examine a situation and be like, "Okay honey, you got my full support." without questioning the fidelity of my wife, then there is no accountability on her end. But if my wife gives someone a handjob and she was not forced or coerced (from my determination), and she "went along with it" because she thought it would help her business... I don't know, man. Not sure I wouldn't question her loyalty and if that's the case, can we truly declare it to be unconsented?

Not saying that this is how it happened with these women, but it's certainly something that should be accounted for, yes?

These events are sad and disgusting and I empathize with the victims. They do generate interesting philosophical discussion between genuine parties. I could never put myself in the position that Deshaun did because I'm simply not that type of dude. Minimally, he seems to be a predator - in fact, it's what I believe. And I believe he was immoral. However, I don't like to definitively say it was one thing or the other. Once we, as a society, grab the torches and pitchforks based on accusations (yes, 22 and all), we become uncivilized. Opinion/belief does not mean he doesn't have a right to defend himself. Court of public opinion, right?

As for the internet, while I love love love that we reached a point in our society where we don't tolerate bigotry, misogyny, etc... I also hate hate hate that it can often result in a battle of moral high horses. Simply questioning the intent of the plaintiffs, based on the facts provided, does not mean someone is disregarding their story. But man oh man is it difficult to truly breakdown a situation without having someone spewing accusations of being a "rapist supporter". Sure, SOME people show that they simply don't care and just want to root for their hero/team or whatever and these people can **** off, but that's not everyone.

If someone is simply examining it and weighing the facts... it's okay to have a discussion without going, "ZOMG YOU ARE A MONSTER HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF"

My two cents.

What type of proof do you want for these accusations?  That’s a legit question.  
 

People talk about “they’re just accusations” constantly while seemingly glossing over the fact that physical evidence in these cases is often not there.  Hence why many sexual assaults aren’t even reported, less perpetrators are indicted and even less are convicted.

 

[Vee-Rex]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

What type of proof do you want for these accusations?  That’s a legit question.  
 

People talk about “they’re just accusations” constantly while seemingly glossing over the fact that physical evidence in these cases is often not there.  Hence why many sexual assaults aren’t even reported, less perpetrators are indicted and even less are convicted.

 

Proof isn't required to draw a thoroughly researched conclusion.

I remember deeply examining the Derrick Rose rape case and coming to my own conclusion that he did nothing wrong based on the facts presented in the case - even though at the time there was no hard evidence one way or another of what actually transpired. Behavioral assessments can lead to the discovery of inconsistencies, such that might influence someone's opinion one way or another.

It's incredibly difficult to obtain physical evidence for sexual assault allegations, as you mentioned. Hell, it can be difficult to obtain physical evidence for brutal rape cases merely days after it occurred. We do know that most sexual assaults go unreported, and we know that fabrication of sexual assaults in which the victim is lying is extremely rare. The data is out there. However, that is within the context of the average sexual assault, and not within the context of a famous or rich entertainer. The numbers are almost assuredly vastly different based on the context - how much? Not sure. 

The idea is that we cannot expect evidence (or the lack thereof) to tell the true story of what transpired, right? Just because there is no evidence doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed. This is important. At the same time, we also cannot auto-assume guilt just because the number is 22. Why? For several reasons:

1. I believe more than half of the 22 was found, based on actual evidence, to be lying. You don't brag about your encounter with Deshaun if you were sexually assault. That does not happen - and I implore anyone to speak with the victim of sexual assault or rape and see if it was something they thought was worth bragging about after the encounter.
This reduces the credible (though of course 22 remain the number for the civil cases) number of complaints, IMO. 22 is no longer a valid number to measure/judge Deshaun's guilt, IMO. Make it 9. Now we're starting to get to a less ridiculous number. As I already stated, the evidence (or the lack thereof) does not mean the remaining 9 couldn't also have fabricated their stories.

2. A celebrity is likely to be more prone to false accusations compared to you or I. Can we quantify it? Sure, but I don't think anyone has at this point. So we don't know what that number looks like.

Even so, we must keep in mind that there could be A SINGLE ACCUSATION against a celebrity and it may very well be entirely true. While we want to take into consideration a person's financial status when they are accused, we absolutely cannot allow that to influence our opinion on whether or not they are being falsely accused. The examination of the details is the sole factor here.

Those are the reasons we shouldn't auto-assume guilt (we truly never should), not reasons we should auto-assume Deshaun is innocent. The pattern I'm trying to demonstrate is one of objectiveness, fairness, and careful consideration of every stakeholder, every angle, and every perspective. I believe minimally he's probably a creep and sexual predator, but at this point I cannot declaratively say he assaulted all, one, or none of those women.

I dislike that we as a society tend to pitch a tent on opposite ends of the spectrum. Either you're a rapist supporter and you don't care whatsoever about what may have happened to the women, or you're holier than the rest and your butthole smells like sunshine and rainbows, and anyone without the same attitude is scum of the earth.

Ugh... one side needs to have some damn perspective and the other side needs to have some damn decency.

[MSURacerDT55]

3 hours ago, Vee-Rex said:

Not here to defend @bruceb because he seems entirely too nonchalant about the whole thing...

...

Alright, I'm going to say this despite the optics, because you are all internet strangers and I really think some critical thinking can be applied. I am comfortable in my life with my wife and kid, and the respect I have for women. There was once a time about 9 years ago when I'd victim-blame out my *** and my wife educated me. I recognize the place and societal disadvantages women have in a patriarchal society. With that said...

Consent is one of the most misinterpreted topic to ever exist. While someone doesn't have to verbally say, "NO" for it to be an unconsented encounter, they don't necessarily have to verbally say, "YES" for it to be a consented encounter. While Deshaun's motives and intent seem apparent (though we can't definitely say for sure), the motives and intent of the plaintiffs must also be examined in order to determine whether or not the interactions were consensual.

You cannot examine consent without analyzing the intent of the plaintiff. This is not victim-blaming - this is an attempt to determine, based on the information provided, if the plaintiff is truthful or lying. In QA (I'm not a QA analyst or anything but I do work with them and in IT), it's not unlike a double-sided test. It's often beneficial to analyze both sides (not just Deshaun's) and their stories to help arrive at a determination.

Personally (and this is just my opinion), I like to play the "fidelity" test. If an individual is sexually harassed, assaulted, etc..., then they should not be held accountable or liable to the interaction. It was unconsented. As a husband I would not hold my wife liable, and my wife would not hold me liable in any way. If I can examine a situation and be like, "Okay honey, you got my full support." without questioning the fidelity of my wife, then there is no accountability on her end. But if my wife gives someone a handjob and she was not forced or coerced (from my determination), and she "went along with it" because she thought it would help her business... I don't know, man. Not sure I wouldn't question her loyalty and if that's the case, can we truly declare it to be unconsented?

Not saying that this is how it happened with these women, but it's certainly something that should be accounted for, yes?

These events are sad and disgusting and I empathize with the victims. They do generate interesting philosophical discussion between genuine parties. I could never put myself in the position that Deshaun did because I'm simply not that type of dude. Minimally, he seems to be a predator - in fact, it's what I believe. And I believe he was immoral. However, I don't like to definitively say it was one thing or the other. Once we, as a society, grab the torches and pitchforks based on accusations (yes, 22 and all), we become uncivilized. Opinion/belief does not mean he doesn't have a right to defend himself. Court of public opinion, right?

As for the internet, while I love love love that we reached a point in our society where we don't tolerate bigotry, misogyny, etc... I also hate hate hate that it can often result in a battle of moral high horses. Simply questioning the intent of the plaintiffs, based on the facts provided, does not mean someone is disregarding their story. But man oh man is it difficult to truly breakdown a situation without having someone spewing accusations of being a "rapist supporter". Sure, SOME people show that they simply don't care and just want to root for their hero/team or whatever and these people can **** off, but that's not everyone.

If someone is simply examining it and weighing the facts... it's okay to have a discussion without going, "ZOMG YOU ARE A MONSTER HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF"

My two cents.

Bravo

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Vee-Rex said:

Proof isn't required to draw a thoroughly researched conclusion.

I remember deeply examining the Derrick Rose rape case and coming to my own conclusion that he did nothing wrong based on the facts presented in the case - even though at the time there was no hard evidence one way or another of what actually transpired. Behavioral assessments can lead to the discovery of inconsistencies, such that might influence someone's opinion one way or another.

It's incredibly difficult to obtain physical evidence for sexual assault allegations, as you mentioned. Hell, it can be difficult to obtain physical evidence for brutal rape cases merely days after it occurred. We do know that most sexual assaults go unreported, and we know that fabrication of sexual assaults in which the victim is lying is extremely rare. The data is out there. However, that is within the context of the average sexual assault, and not within the context of a famous or rich entertainer. The numbers are almost assuredly vastly different based on the context - how much? Not sure. 

The idea is that we cannot expect evidence (or the lack thereof) to tell the true story of what transpired, right? Just because there is no evidence doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed. This is important. At the same time, we also cannot auto-assume guilt just because the number is 22. Why? For several reasons:

1. I believe more than half of the 22 was found, based on actual evidence, to be lying. You don't brag about your encounter with Deshaun if you were sexually assault. That does not happen - and I implore anyone to speak with the victim of sexual assault or rape and see if it was something they thought was worth bragging about after the encounter.
This reduces the credible (though of course 22 remain the number for the civil cases) number of complaints, IMO. 22 is no longer a valid number to measure/judge Deshaun's guilt, IMO. Make it 9. Now we're starting to get to a less ridiculous number. As I already stated, the evidence (or the lack thereof) does not mean the remaining 9 couldn't also have fabricated their stories.

2. A celebrity is likely to be more prone to false accusations compared to you or I. Can we quantify it? Sure, but I don't think anyone has at this point. So we don't know what that number looks like.

Even so, we must keep in mind that there could be A SINGLE ACCUSATION against a celebrity and it may very well be entirely true. While we want to take into consideration a person's financial status when they are accused, we absolutely cannot allow that to influence our opinion on whether or not they are being falsely accused. The examination of the details is the sole factor here.

Those are the reasons we shouldn't auto-assume guilt (we truly never should), not reasons we should auto-assume Deshaun is innocent. The pattern I'm trying to demonstrate is one of objectiveness, fairness, and careful consideration of every stakeholder, every angle, and every perspective. I believe minimally he's probably a creep and sexual predator, but at this point I cannot declaratively say he assaulted all, one, or none of those women.

I dislike that we as a society tend to pitch a tent on opposite ends of the spectrum. Either you're a rapist supporter and you don't care whatsoever about what may have happened to the women, or you're holier than the rest and your butthole smells like sunshine and rainbows, and anyone without the same attitude is scum of the earth.

Ugh... one side needs to have some damn perspective and the other side needs to have some damn decency.

Are you saying that anyone who Watson claimed was lying, was lying? Watson's people said she bragged to friends so we take that all at face value? Watson claims that one wanted to set up another appointment so that particular person was lying?

Watson said he apologized to some women who he offended yet says he never in his life disrespected a woman.

His word holds no value, nor should it. It doesn't mean he is lying about all or any but he has told too many lies to be believed.

[Vee-Rex]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

1. Are you saying that anyone who Watson claimed was lying, was lying?

Watson's people said she bragged to friends so we take that all at face value? Watson claims that one wanted to set up another appointment so that particular person was lying?

Watson said he apologized to some women who he offended yet says he never in his life disrespected a woman.

His word holds no value, nor should it. It doesn't mean he is lying about all or any but he has told too many lies to be believed.

1. No, of course not.

The entire situation is a he-said she-said and, unfortunately, we don't have enough information to make any definitive declarations. Watson's team ~claims~ that they have evidence that a portion of the 22 (I thought it was 9, but I read that it's 13 in total now) have lied about their accusations. They are claiming to have evidence - now if it turns out that Watson's team is lying then they're lying. But gun to my head, in a he-said she-said situation, if one party claims to have evidence... ...

... gun to my head and I have to believe one side, I'm going to believe the evidence-claiming side.

At the end of the day I'd be foolish to make any definitive statements. So I'd like to correct one earlier statement I made:

"You don't brag about your encounter with Deshaun if you were sexually assault."

I should preface that by saying, "Generally speaking, people don't brag about their encounter with Deshaun if they were sexually assaulted." Because the simple truth is that some people can indeed process things in a way where they don't realize the assault.

In saying that, the SAME energy has to be applied to Deshaun's side as well (it's only fair). Generally speaking, people don't see 40+ therapists if they aren't sexually preying on those women.

[bruceb]

7 hours ago, Vee-Rex said:

My two cents.

That was at least$.87

Good thoughts, though.

[NateDawg]

10 hours ago, Reginaldm9 said:

Bragging about having noncommittal relations with girls when you were younger has to be the lamest thing I’ve ever seen posted on the Browns board. 

“Boys will be boys lol”

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Vee-Rex said:

1. No, of course not.

The entire situation is a he-said she-said and, unfortunately, we don't have enough information to make any definitive declarations. Watson's team ~claims~ that they have evidence that a portion of the 22 (I thought it was 9, but I read that it's 13 in total now) have lied about their accusations. They are claiming to have evidence - now if it turns out that Watson's team is lying then they're lying. But gun to my head, in a he-said she-said situation, if one party claims to have evidence... ...

... gun to my head and I have to believe one side, I'm going to believe the evidence-claiming side.

At the end of the day I'd be foolish to make any definitive statements. So I'd like to correct one earlier statement I made:

"You don't brag about your encounter with Deshaun if you were sexually assault."

I should preface that by saying, "Generally speaking, people don't brag about their encounter with Deshaun if they were sexually assaulted." Because the simple truth is that some people can indeed process things in a way where they don't realize the assault.

In saying that, the SAME energy has to be applied to Deshaun's side as well (it's only fair). Generally speaking, people don't see 40+ therapists if they aren't sexually preying on those women.

Yeah, besides the people involved it's not possible to be 100% either way.

I just didn't think it was fair you eliminated the ones that Watson's marketing team claimed certain things about. Some were "bragging" and some were willing to accept another appointment...according to them.

As far as evidence... why not make it public? Leak it if you have to.

We know Watson is creepy and a liar. Maybe all of the women are too, we can't know that. My math makes me lean in one direction though just based on odds of at least one of the women being honest over one person who either isn't or is delusional.

 

[bruceb]

11 hours ago, Reginaldm9 said:

Bragging about having noncommittal relations with girls when you were younger has to be the lamest thing I’ve ever seen posted on the Browns board. 

I would say that characterizing my factual statements, which were intended to provide perspective, as bragging indirectly (wimp) is one hell of a lot lamer.

Grow some, @Reginaldm9

[duke2056]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:48 PM, Thomas5737 said:

I'd feel better about accepting him as our QB if he admitted he had a problem and was seeking help. He believes he has done nothing wrong and said he has never disrespected a woman.

 

You would feel better about him as our QB if he made the dumbest decision of all time??

[Reginaldm9]

8 hours ago, bruceb said:

I would say that characterizing my factual statements, which were intended to provide perspective, as bragging indirectly (wimp) is one hell of a lot lamer.

Grow some, @Reginaldm9

Lol enjoy that revisionist history where it’s somehow you not wanting to be around other people and not the other way around old man. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

10 hours ago, Vee-Rex said:

1. No, of course not.

The entire situation is a he-said she-said and, unfortunately, we don't have enough information to make any definitive declarations. Watson's team ~claims~ that they have evidence that a portion of the 22 (I thought it was 9, but I read that it's 13 in total now) have lied about their accusations. They are claiming to have evidence - now if it turns out that Watson's team is lying then they're lying. But gun to my head, in a he-said she-said situation, if one party claims to have evidence... ...

Another way to phrase that would be there are now 9 women who claim to have been sexually assaulted where the defense has no evidence otherwise.  

10 hours ago, Vee-Rex said:

... gun to my head and I have to believe one side, I'm going to believe the evidence-claiming side.

So don’t need to see the evidence, you just take their word for it they have evidence?  
 

You believe them.  
 

But not the 22 women.  Gotta have more info there, right?  Gun to your head the one accused sexual predator should be believed because his legal team says “we have evidence” (while providing none)?

Is there a single case in history that would mirror what you’re describing?  20+ women all with similar stories from all over the country all lying?

10 hours ago, Vee-Rex said:

At the end of the day I'd be foolish to make any definitive statements. So I'd like to correct one earlier statement I made:

"You don't brag about your encounter with Deshaun if you were sexually assault."

I should preface that by saying, "Generally speaking, people don't brag about their encounter with Deshaun if they were sexually assaulted." Because the simple truth is that some people can indeed process things in a way where they don't realize the assault.

In saying that, the SAME energy has to be applied to Deshaun's side as well (it's only fair). Generally speaking, people don't see 40+ therapists if they aren't sexually preying on those women.

Your posts are odd.  You, unlike many folks, seem to actually grasp that evidence in a situation like this is often unavailable, that these crimes are underreported, and that indictments and convictions are difficult due to the nature of the situation.  You also seem to get that someone falsely accusing another person of these things is exceedingly rare.  You seem to understand the fundamentals to this type of situation (or at least are able to regurgitate them here), but then it all falls apart.

Like are you just not connecting the dots or are you just refusing to believe the stuff in this case applies to the stats/info that you seem to be aware of? Do you believe, or are at least willing to entertain, that this is a giant conspiracy?
 

Your posts don’t read, at least to me, as the balanced, rational perspective I think you think they are.  They read like a better written than most defense of a pervert.
 

Im all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and if this were an isolated incident and not a couple dozen I could absolutely understand someone being skeptical. But holy smokes every detail in this case looks awful for him when held to the information you yourself presented and are aware of.

[Vee-Rex]

58 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Another way to phrase that would be there are now 9 women who claim to have been sexually assaulted where the defense has no evidence otherwise.  

Quote

 

So don’t need to see the evidence, you just take their word for it they have evidence?  
 

You believe them.  

But not the 22 women.  Gotta have more info there, right?  Gun to your head the one accused sexual predator should be believed because his legal team says “we have evidence” (while providing none)?

 

Do you know what "gun to my head" means?

I'm stating pretty clearly, "We don't know." because we aren't privy to all the facts. In the event that I HAVE TO DRAW a conclusion (which is what "gun to my head" means), then I'd conclude that for those specific 13 women (not the other 9), the evidence-claiming side is being truthful. I'd do the same for the other side if the 13 women claimed to have evidence themselves and Deshaun's didn't.

In terms of the defense not yet providing evidence, isn't there a process for that for when the cases go to trial? Just because we, the public, don't yet have access doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote

Is there a single case in history that would mirror what you’re describing?  20+ women all with similar stories from all over the country all lying?

I have no clue. But I'm black and I know plenty of black people were wrongly convicted of crimes with an enormous amount of witnesses claiming they committed the crimes. Hell, it has happened to me where multiple people accused me of stealing because I was in the vicinity of where someone lost their damn phone. Racism being the driving motivation. So I'm not the type of person that will look at a number and determine someone's guilt based solely off that number.

So let me ask you - why not skip the trial and just lock him up, because 20+ women with similar stories are all accusing him of sexual assault/indecent exposure? Why even bother if the number of people making the accusations determine his guilt for you?

Quote

Your posts are odd.

No, I'd argue YOUR posts are odd. I respect you as a long-time poster on this forum (I lurk more than I actually post) but arguing precedence in legal matters is a really warped way to frame your position. "Is there a SINGLE case in history?" is and will never be the de facto determining factor of someone's guilt or innocence.

Quote

 You, unlike many folks, seem to actually grasp that evidence in a situation like this is often unavailable, that these crimes are underreported, and that indictments and convictions are difficult due to the nature of the situation.  You also seem to get that someone falsely accusing another person of these things is exceedingly rare.  You seem to understand the fundamentals to this type of situation (or at least are able to regurgitate them here), but then it all falls apart.

 Like are you just not connecting the dots or are you just refusing to believe the stuff in this case applies to the stats/info that you seem to be aware of? Do you believe, or are at least willing to entertain, that this is a giant conspiracy?

I'm not sure if you finished reading my comments on this, but I would imagine the numbers are skewed a bit when you bring them within context. The amount of false accusations and/or underreported sexual assaults against a rich celebrity vs the average joe is probably a bit different. You can acknowledge this from a logical standpoint, yes?

Again, and I repeat, I'm not proclaiming Deshaun's innocence here. I cannot stress this enough as I feel that many arguments that aren't auto-condemning him are taken to mean they are in support of him. I'm bringing his situation within context, since you're the one that first mentioned the number of underreported crimes.

I don't believe it's a giant conspiracy/money grab but I won't completely write it off.

Quote

Your posts don’t read, at least to me, as the balanced, rational perspective I think you think they are.  They read like a better written than most defense of a pervert.

To me, your post reads as, "Declare he's guilty or you're defending him."

Which was my gripe.

Most times I say nothing at all because I don't know all of our personal lives - I realize some people may be impacted by this more deeply because of personal reasons. Sometimes it's best to not say anything at all - but IDK, I don't like mob mentality and ostracization of people who won't automatically hop on the "he's guilty" bandwagon.

I don't know if this conversation has clarified my position - but I DO believe he's a sexual predator/creep and he went into these encounters hoping he might get laid. But I do not feel comfortable, at this point, drawing a hard conclusion on what transpired in these encounters just because it was "22 accusations".

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, Vee-Rex said:

 

Ok, not sure now these posts got so mangled, but I’ll start from here.

First, when you say “guilty”, guilty of what?  A crime meeting the threshold necessary to send someone to prison based on 22 accusations?  Maybe, maybe not depending on the details.  Guilty enough to think he’s likely a POS human and people doing mental gymnastics to excuse his behavior (not you) are gross?  Yeah.

The precedents are absolutely relevant.  What you’re describing as a possibility, 22 unrelated people from all of the country in some giant conspiracy to milk some cash from a dude with false claims of sexual assaults, is something (at least to my knowledge) that has never happened. Not credibly enough to send police findings to a grand jury anyway.  And while yes, I agree, a celebrity would be a more likely target in that case, there’s still no other examples of that happening that I’m aware of.
 

I personally just find it hard to weigh the likelihood of some giant, never before seen conspiracy vs a dude being a serial creep, which we’ve seen hundreds of times previously, as equal possibilities.  Or even remotely equal. 
 

Like I’ve said before, folks who want to support him because he’s our QB and they don’t give af about his (or any other players) off the field issues because they’re all just here for entertainment, cool, I get it.

My issue is the handful of people trying to sow doubt in him being a POS for god knows what reason.  Some situations don’t require both sidesing or fence sitting imo.

And maybe on this one we can just agree to disagree on this because I don’t see anyone changing each other’s mind.