Wide Receivers or lack there of

[hornbybrown]

I now our wideouts look horrible now.... But they are about to get a really big boost. Coleman and Gordon both coming back fully changes that group

[AkronsWitness]

@Mind Character My point being these WRs would look a LOT different (better) if they didnt have the 35th best QB in the NFL throwing them the ball. Kizer does nothing to help out the current WRs. Give these WRs a top 15 QB who can actually hit them on target coming out of breaks in the hands and complete the wide open passes and you would view them different.

Kizer misses SOOOOOOO many WRs its not even funny when they are wide open. Even when he hits a WR, the ball is rarely in a easily catchable spot. They all have to reach behind them to get it, jump to get it and dive to catch everything completely negating any/all YAC ability anybody might have.

We have no idea how good these WRs are because the QB throwing them the ball is garbage and doesnt consistently put anybody in position to excel.

WRs dont make the QB better, the QB makes the WRs better as I cited with numerous examples with Demaryius Thomas, Emmanual Sanders, DeAndre Hopkins, TY Hilton, Donte Moncreif, Antonio Brown.

Look how good Willie Snead and Taylor Gabriel look with Brees and Ryan throwing them the ball. In Cleveland they were both cut and looked like trash. Amazing what happens to a WR when the QB can actually get them the ball and hit them in the hands in stride on timing routes.

[hornbybrown]

9 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

@Mind Character My point being these WRs would look a LOT different (better) if they didnt have the 35th best QB in the NFL throwing them the ball. Kizer does nothing to help out the current WRs. Give these WRs a top 15 QB who can actually hit them on target coming out of breaks in the hands and complete the wide open passes and you would view them different.

Kizer misses SOOOOOOO many WRs its not even funny when they are wide open. Even when he hits a WR, the ball is rarely in a easily catchable spot. They all have to reach behind them to get it, jump to get it and dive to catch everything completely negating any/all YAC ability anybody might have.

We have no idea how good these WRs are because the QB throwing them the ball is garbage and doesnt consistently put anybody in position to excel.

WRs dont make the QB better, the QB makes the WRs better as I cited with numerous examples with Demaryius Thomas, Emmanual Sanders, DeAndre Hopkins, TY Hilton, Donte Moncreif, Antonio Brown.

Look how good Willie Snead and Taylor Gabriel look with Brees and Ryan throwing them the ball. In Cleveland they were both cut and looked like trash. Amazing what happens to a WR when the QB can actually get them the ball and hit them in the hands in stride on timing routes.

I agree that QB play isn't helping but I also don't think these are good WR's either. 

[AkronsWitness]

2 minutes ago, hornbybrown said:

I agree that QB play isn't helping but I also don't think these are good WR's either. 

We will find out when Higgins/Louis get cut in the offseason and become Willie Snead or Taylor Gabriel on the Packers/Patriots/Panthers/Eagles.

[bruceb]

18 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

@Mind Character My point being these WRs would look a LOT different (better) if they didnt have the 35th best QB in the NFL throwing them the ball. Kizer does nothing to help out the current WRs. Give these WRs a top 15 QB who can actually hit them on target coming out of breaks in the hands and complete the wide open passes and you would view them different.

Kizer misses SOOOOOOO many WRs its not even funny when they are wide open. Even when he hits a WR, the ball is rarely in a easily catchable spot. They all have to reach behind them to get it, jump to get it and dive to catch everything completely negating any/all YAC ability anybody might have.

We have no idea how good these WRs are because the QB throwing them the ball is garbage and doesnt consistently put anybody in position to excel.

WRs dont make the QB better, the QB makes the WRs better as I cited with numerous examples with Demaryius Thomas, Emmanual Sanders, DeAndre Hopkins, TY Hilton, Donte Moncreif, Antonio Brown.

Look how good Willie Snead and Taylor Gabriel look with Brees and Ryan throwing them the ball. In Cleveland they were both cut and looked like trash. Amazing what happens to a WR when the QB can actually get them the ball and hit them in the hands in stride on timing routes.

Good stuff.

And I am not sure at all that Kizer's defects are curable.

He throws a nice looking ball but it's only rarely where it is catchable/easy to catch.

[DizzyDean]

2 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

We will find out when Higgins/Louis get cut in the offseason and become Willie Snead or Taylor Gabriel on the Packers/Patriots/Panthers/Eagles.

I agree, these guys are not Calvin Johnson, but they are also not Brian Robiski.  They are capable, they are competent, and they are absolutely roster worthy.  Moving them creates more holes.  They are good 3 and 4 type of WRs with room to grow.  QB is the key, as well as a true #1 WR eating up double teams.

Our offense is not far off at all, sadly though, one of the few pieces we need is the queen on the chess board (the Quarterback).

We need:

Franchise QB

True do it all #1 WR (maybe Gordon does it, I still don't think so but I hope more than anything that he does).  I sign Bridgewater or McCarron in the offseason, and use Houston's round 1 pick on whichever QB we like best that falls to it.  I think it will be a top 5 pick, with 4 top notch QB prospects available, we should have no problem getting one without using 1 overall on him.

Number 2 WR - This is Coleman if he gets and stays healthy.

3 down work horse RB - Barkley at #1 overall in the draft is my hopes.  If not, a Free Agent signing.

Possible LT depending on Big Joe's decision.

Offensive coordinator.

These things are what we are lacking.  We do NOT need to start cutting guys like Higgins, Louis, Treggs, or Williams.

[brownie man]

3 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

We will find out when Higgins/Louis get cut in the offseason and become Willie Snead or Taylor Gabriel on the Packers/Patriots/Panthers/Eagles.

Higgins sucked last year he had what 4 catches?

Higgins had the game of his life with Kizer throwing him the ball

Louis sucked last year

Louis sucks this year 

Where are you getting the idea that our receivers are good? Is it when they drop passes or when they dont create seperation, Oh wait I know! It's when we commit offensive pass interference!

All these guys sucked last year so I dont get the rationale that Kizer is holding these guys back. Josh Mccown who is doing decent with the Jets had these guys and didn't do ****. Goes to NY and is playing decent. 

Yes if Tom Brady was on our team they'd look better, but we would still be looking for an upgrade. I'm not giving up on any of them yet, but to say they're not producing because of Kizer and that why they look bad thats wrong they are bad right now. 

[DizzyDean]

1 hour ago, brownie man said:

Higgins sucked last year he had what 4 catches?

Higgins had the game of his life with Kizer throwing him the ball

Louis sucked last year

Louis sucks this year 

Where are you getting the idea that our receivers are good? Is it when they drop passes or when they dont create seperation, Oh wait I know! It's when we commit offensive pass interference!

All these guys sucked last year so I dont get the rationale that Kizer is holding these guys back. Josh Mccown who is doing decent with the Jets had these guys and didn't do ****. Goes to NY and is playing decent. 

Yes if Tom Brady was on our team they'd look better, but we would still be looking for an upgrade. I'm not giving up on any of them yet, but to say they're not producing because of Kizer and that why they look bad thats wrong they are bad right now. 

To say that they are not producing like a #1 WR bonafide stud because of Kizer is wrong.  To say that they are flat out not producing as #3 - #6 WRs because of Kizer is pretty much as accurate as it gets, along with not having a true #1 to take on the double teams, and a respectable running game.

A few things, not long ago, it was pretty much the consensus that it takes a WR 3 years to hit their stride.  You are grading mid to late round draft picks, with 1.5 years of play, all with extremely bad QB play, as sucking.  Let that sink in.

If they have shown flashes (and they absolutely have) under those conditions, then I think they absolutely have the right stuff to be nice contributors to our team once we have more stars in place.

I love how our offense is shaping up.  I think Njoku will be a star, I think DeValve will be a very fine #2 TE, and we can soon have a dynamic 2 TE set to run.  I think Duke is a great swiss army knife type of player.  I think we are stacked at WR from the #3 spot all the way down.  We need a real QB, we need a real 3 down RB, we need a #1 and #2 WR in which way may already have both (but we are the Browns, so...), we may need a LT, and an upgrade at RT wouldn't hurt, but we are good enough there.

Expecting league leading WR production from late round WRs, in year 2, after being drafted mid to late, with the worst QB play imaginable is not just unrealistic, it goes well beyond that.

[DizzyDean]

By the way, who was it quoted me in their sig at the old place after the draft for saying Kizer is a project?  I forget who it was, but they said "This dude is gonna look real bad."  Well?

[brownie man]

1 minute ago, DizzyDean said:

 

A few things, not long ago, it was pretty much the consensus that it takes a WR 3 years to hit their stride.  You are grading mid to late round draft picks, with 1.5 years of play, all with extremely bad QB play, as sucking.  Let that sink in.

 

Lmao your going to postpone judgement on our receivers because they having yet hit year 3

But You'll proclaim Kizer who is a quarterback a bust after 8 games when QB out of any position would take the longest time to develop 

let that sink in 

your biased man and its sad 

[DizzyDean]

1 hour ago, brownie man said:

Lmao your going to postpone judgement on our receivers because they having yet hit year 3

But You'll proclaim Kizer who is a quarterback a bust after 8 games when QB out of any position would take the longest time to develop 

let that sink in 

your biased man and its sad 

One, I never said postpone judgement on our WRs, I have evaluated them as well, and given their skills, QB play, and time in the league, my evaluation clearly states that they are not #1 guys, but they are in fact roster worthy and will be very good as #3 WRs and on down to fill out the depth chart.  Reading with comprehension, dig it!

Regarding evaluating Kizer after 8 games, you betcha, because he is not progressing, he is not maintaining, he is regressing at a rapid rate, and the things that he is regressing at, are the things that were knocks on him at ND, things that he actually regressed at while at ND.  The regression has simply continued and accelerated.  I am happy that I could clear that up for you.

Regarding bias, what exactly am I biased against?  What exactly have I said that doesn't hold true?

[AkronsWitness]

7 hours ago, bruceb said:

Good stuff.

And I am not sure at all that Kizer's defects are curable.

He throws a nice looking ball but it's only rarely where it is catchable/easy to catch.

As a 1/2 Broncos fan, he reminds me of Tebow. When you see him drop back its just 'please throw it in the general area' and pray the WR is good enough to dive and catch it

When was the last time you saw Kizer his a WR on a route and the pick up extra YAC becasue it was well timed? Never.

[AkronsWitness]

4 hours ago, brownie man said:

Higgins sucked last year he had what 4 catches?

Higgins had the game of his life with Kizer throwing him the ball

Louis sucked last year

Louis sucks this year 

Where are you getting the idea that our receivers are good? Is it when they drop passes or when they dont create seperation, Oh wait I know! It's when we commit offensive pass interference!

All these guys sucked last year so I dont get the rationale that Kizer is holding these guys back. Josh Mccown who is doing decent with the Jets had these guys and didn't do ****. Goes to NY and is playing decent. 

Yes if Tom Brady was on our team they'd look better, but we would still be looking for an upgrade. I'm not giving up on any of them yet, but to say they're not producing because of Kizer and that why they look bad thats wrong they are bad right now. 

Kizer would have 1,000 more yards right now if he could actually hit a wide open WR. He has missed so many easy passes for gains its not even funny. When a WR is wide open, he either doesnt see them or completely overthrows them by 10 yards.

The WRs are running their routes, Kizer just cant find anybody on time

[DizzyDean]

1 hour ago, AkronsWitness said:

Kizer would have 1,000 more yards right now if he could actually hit a wide open WR. He has missed so many easy passes for gains its not even funny. When a WR is wide open, he either doesnt see them or completely overthrows them by 10 yards.

The WRs are running their routes, Kizer just cant find anybody on time

Its not just that, so many of his completions have let the WR right into an immediate tackle, often times having to go to the turf to make the catch, or drag the toe as they fall out of bounds to make the catch, all due to horrible ball placement.  Place the ball right, he has a ton more completions, 1000 more yards is likely an extremely conservative estimate.  Folks can chicken or egg it all you want, but those that actually know what they are watching can tell you exactly where the biggest problem is, and it is not our WRs.  Would folks be complaining so much about our WR if they as a group had 1000 more yards spread among them, and a handful of TDs?  Probably not.

[DizzyDean]

1 hour ago, AkronsWitness said:

As a 1/2 Broncos fan, he reminds me of Tebow. When you see him drop back its just 'please throw it in the general area' and pray the WR is good enough to dive and catch it

When was the last time you saw Kizer his a WR on a route and the pick up extra YAC becasue it was well timed? Never.

I would take Tebow 10 out of 10 times vs Kizer.  Kizer has a stronger arm, he throws a prettier pass, both are inaccurate, Tebow however has leadership out the ying yang, Kizer has zero.  Tebow also processed much faster.