My top 10 Defensive Players of all Time No Order

[mdonnelly21]

13 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

My only issue with pass rushers of today vs guys like LT Bruce smith and Reggie white is the amount of attempts they get to rush the passer in comparison… It’s like to the total points vs point per game argument for MJ vs Lebron… like yeah or BRon will end up with the most points total but is he really a better scorer when u factor in he averages like 3 less points a game… 

Right, not to mention is Lebron even a better scorer than KD, Kareem or Wilt... 

Even if he ends up scoring the most, probably not. Although he will go down as one of the most efficient scorers of all time. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

16 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

My only issue with pass rushers of today vs guys like LT Bruce smith and Reggie white is the amount of attempts they get to rush the passer in comparison… It’s like to the total points vs point per game argument for MJ vs Lebron… like yeah or BRon will end up with the most points total but is he really a better scorer when u factor in he averages like 3 less points a game… 

Considering Jordan averaged 3.3 more FGA/Game than Lebron does, the argument you're making doesn't help you. 

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, mdonnelly21 said:

Right, not to mention is Lebron even a better scorer than KD, Kareem or Wilt... 

Even if he ends up scoring the most, probably not. Although he will go down as one of the most efficient scorers of all time. 

Is Jordan a better scorer than KD, Kareem, or Wilt?

League-Adjusted TS%/Points per 100 possessions:

Jordan (Bulls only): 106 (108)/ 40.4 (41.5)

Lebron: 108/36.7

Durant: 113/39.0

Wilt: 113/NA

Kareem: 114/29.9

Jordan carries a fairly substantial volume advantage over Kareem, but he doesn't really have that same argument over the other 4, and Kareem will certainly have a defensive impact advantage.

Durant may be the best pure scorer in league history. 

[bmorecareful]

4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Considering Jordan averaged 3.3 more FGA/Game than Lebron does, the argument you're making doesn't help you. 

FGA are a choice… especially when u consider Lebron’s 35.6 usage rare in comparison to Jordan’s 32.0… Not to mention all these numbers are skewed by the wizards years… Lebrons single season career high in ppg is less than Jordan’s 13 season average during his bulls tenure… this isn’t really close honestly…. 

[Ozzy]

On 3/30/2022 at 12:27 PM, biggie. said:

My base 3-4 Dreamfense

LE: J.J. Watt

NT: Ted Washington

RE: Reggie White

LOLB: Andre Tippett

ROLB: Lawrence Taylor

ILB: Derrick Brooks

ILB: Junior Seau

CB: Darrelle Revis

CB: Deion Sanders

FS: Ed Reed

SS: Troy Polamalu

I would agree with a lot of this but Aaron Donald in and JJ Watt would be out, also Derrick Thomas in and Andre Tipplett out, and Vince Wilfork in and Ted Washington out.  Also I have a hard time not having Champ Bailey or Charles Woodson on, especially since Woodson played safety for so long.  Probably go at their peak Charles Woodson over Revis.  Also not sure Derrick Brooks is a scheme fit as a 3/4 ILB some might have to go with Ray Lewis and I love Troy but Ronnie Lott probably at SS and Reed as the FS.  

 

LE: Aaron Donald

NT: Vince Wilfork

RE: Reggie White

LOLB: Derrick Thomas

ILB: Ray Lewis

ILB: Junior Seau

ROLB: Lawrence Taylor

CB: Charles Woodson

CB: Deion Sanders

FS: Ed Reed

SS: Ronnie Lott

[JohnChimpo]

6 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Is Jordan a better scorer than KD, Kareem, or Wilt?

League-Adjusted TS%/Points per 100 possessions:

Jordan (Bulls only): 106 (108)/ 40.4 (41.5)

Lebron: 108/36.7

Durant: 113/39.0

Wilt: 113/NA

Kareem: 114/29.9

Jordan carries a fairly substantial volume advantage over Kareem, but he doesn't really have that same argument over the other 4, and Kareem will certainly have a defensive impact advantage.

Durant may be the best pure scorer in league history. 

When Phil Jackson became head coach of the Bulls, he told Jordan he didn’t want him winning another scoring title because no scoring champ had ever won an NBA Championship in the same year. He had already won 3 scoring titles. He went on to win another 7, which was one for each full year he played with the Bulls, and he obviously won an NBA title in 6 of those years. LeBron has won one scoring title.

[AlexGreen#20]

2 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

FGA are a choice… especially when u consider Lebron’s 35.6 usage rare in comparison to Jordan’s 32.0… Not to mention all these numbers are skewed by the wizards years… Lebrons single season career high in ppg is less than Jordan’s 13 season average during his bulls tenure… this isn’t really close honestly…. 

1. The 3.3 FGA/Game number increases to an INCREDIBLY different 3.7 FGA/Game upon removing the Wizards years for Jordan.

Try again.

2. Why would we remove Jordan's 18th* and 19th* seasons in the league, when Lebron is currently leading the league in points/game in his 19th season.

3. Jordan has a usage rate of 33.3%. It's 33.5% when you remove the Wizards year. Lebron has a usage rate of 31.6%. That's especially telling when Lebron has an AST% of 36.4% vs. Jordan's 24.9%.

4. Yes, we've discussed that Jordan scores more per game. . . because he shot the ball quite a bit more. 

 

*when accounting for various retirements.

[biggie.]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

I would agree with a lot of this but Aaron Donald in and JJ Watt would be out, also Derrick Thomas in and Andre Tipplett out, and Vince Wilfork in and Ted Washington out.  Also I have a hard time not having Champ Bailey or Charles Woodson on, especially since Woodson played safety for so long.  Probably go at their peak Charles Woodson over Revis.  Also not sure Derrick Brooks is a scheme fit as a 3/4 ILB some might have to go with Ray Lewis and I love Troy but Ronnie Lott probably at SS and Reed as the FS.  

 

LE: Aaron Donald

NT: Vince Wilfork

RE: Reggie White

LOLB: Derrick Thomas

ILB: Ray Lewis

ILB: Junior Seau

ROLB: Lawrence Taylor

CB: Charles Woodson

CB: Deion Sanders

FS: Ed Reed

SS: Ronnie Lott

Andre Tippett is one of the most criminally underrated players in NFL history. LT was the primary reason he wasn't a bigger star in the 80's. Plus it is a bit of a homer pick.

Not entirely worried about Brooks not "fitting". He was a smart and dominant enough player to excel in any scheme he would have been in. Ray Lewis was just more charismatic than him.

A lot of people seem to have forgotten how thoroughly dominant Watt and Revis were.

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, JohnChimpo said:

When Phil Jackson became head coach of the Bulls, he told Jordan he didn’t want him winning another scoring title because no scoring champ had ever won an NBA Championship in the same year. He had already won 3 scoring titles. He went on to win another 7, which was one for each full year he played with the Bulls, and he obviously won an NBA title in 6 of those years. LeBron has won one scoring title.

Wilt won 8 consecutive scoring titles starting his rookie year. He also led the league in FG% in years 9-11 at still very respectable volume. He just didn't keep winning scoring titles because the team asked him to distribute more. If you're going to make the argument that team role has no place in this discussion for Lebron vs. Jordan, then there is no argument that Jordan is a stronger volume scorer than Wilt without severely penalizing Wilt for either post season resiliency or era. 

Jordan obviously holds the edge in volume scoring over Kareem at their peaks, but Kareem didn't fall out of the top 3 in PPG until 78/79. He was still a top 10 scorer when he was 38, and that was with Magic taking only 4 fewer FGA/Game. 

Jordan has those scoring titles for the same reason that Lebron doesn't. Jordan shot the ball a **** ton and didn't have a distributing role. He's putting up 24%+ of his team shots. I don't think Lebron ever broke 18%. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

5 minutes ago, biggie. said:

Andre Tippett is one of the most criminally underrated players in NFL history. LT was the primary reason he wasn't a bigger star in the 80's. Plus it is a bit of a homer pick.

Not entirely worried about Brooks not "fitting". He was a smart and dominant enough player to excel in any scheme he would have been in. Ray Lewis was just more charismatic than him.

A lot of people seem to have forgotten how thoroughly dominant Watt and Revis were.

Yeah, I love Chuck Woodson, but there was a point in Revis' career where you would celebrate getting Revis to take a false step. 

[JohnChimpo]

57 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Wilt won 8 consecutive scoring titles starting his rookie year. He also led the league in FG% in years 9-11 at still very respectable volume. He just didn't keep winning scoring titles because the team asked him to distribute more. If you're going to make the argument that team role has no place in this discussion for Lebron vs. Jordan, then there is no argument that Jordan is a stronger volume scorer than Wilt without severely penalizing Wilt for either post season resiliency or era. 

Jordan obviously holds the edge in volume scoring over Kareem at their peaks, but Kareem didn't fall out of the top 3 in PPG until 78/79. He was still a top 10 scorer when he was 38, and that was with Magic taking only 4 fewer FGA/Game. 

Jordan has those scoring titles for the same reason that Lebron doesn't. Jordan shot the ball a **** ton and didn't have a distributing role. He's putting up 24%+ of his team shots. I don't think Lebron ever broke 18%. 

 

I never said anything about Wilt. He was a much more dominant scorer than anyone. Nobody else even came close to averaging 50 in a season. Kareem and LeBron are obviously great scorers too.

[AlexGreen#20]

8 minutes ago, JohnChimpo said:

I never said anything about Wilt. He was a much more dominant scorer than anyone. Nobody else even came close to averaging 50 in a season. Kareem and LeBron are obviously great scorers too.

Which is the biggest problem with the Jordan narrative. Jordan's only impact was as a scorer.

If you're going to say that Kareem/LeBron are in the same ballpark as scorers, then how does Jordan edge them out when things like playmaking (LeBron) longevity (both) and defensive impact (Kareem) are significant advantages they hold over Jordan?

[JohnChimpo]

5 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Which is the biggest problem with the Jordan narrative. Jordan's only impact was as a scorer.

If you're going to say that Kareem/LeBron are in the same ballpark as scorers, then how does Jordan edge them out when things like playmaking (LeBron) longevity (both) and defensive impact (Kareem) are significant advantages they hold over Jordan?

I never said he did. Some other guy talked about scoring, and I addressed Jordan vs LeBron as scorers. This is supposed to be about defensive football players, but let’s not act like Jordan couldn’t defend. He did win DPOY.

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, biggie. said:

Andre Tippett is one of the most criminally underrated players in NFL history. LT was the primary reason he wasn't a bigger star in the 80's. Plus it is a bit of a homer pick.

Not entirely worried about Brooks not "fitting". He was a smart and dominant enough player to excel in any scheme he would have been in. Ray Lewis was just more charismatic than him.

A lot of people seem to have forgotten how thoroughly dominant Watt and Revis were.

No way Tippett is better than Derrick Thomas but sure Derrick Thomas had massive injury issues which hurt him plus some mental stuff.  JJ Watt is good but again not sure he has been wildly consistent through his entire career like Donald has been and Donald has been more consistently dominating assuming he does not retire soon.  Revis yeah but I guess technically it should be Rod Woodson at that other corner spot, that dude was legit and played for 17 years.  

[AlexGreen#20]

5 minutes ago, JohnChimpo said:

I never said he did. Some other guy talked about scoring, and I addressed Jordan vs LeBron as scorers. This is supposed to be about defensive football players, but let’s not act like Jordan couldn’t defend. He did win DPOY.

Jordan was a very solid perimeter defender. 

By nature of his position, his defensive impact is SIGNIFICANTLY less than people who offer rim protection. In a year where Hakeem Olajuwan was in his prime, Michael Jordan should not have gotten a single DPOY vote, much less won the award. People have gotten WAY smarter about what makes players good and productive defenders.