AlexGreen#20 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 9 minutes ago, Ozzy said: No way Tippett is better than Derrick Thomas but sure Derrick Thomas had massive injury issues which hurt him plus some mental stuff. JJ Watt is good but again not sure he has been wildly consistent through his entire career like Donald has been and Donald has been more consistently dominating assuming he does not retire soon. Revis yeah but I guess technically it should be Rod Woodson at that other corner spot, that dude was legit and played for 17 years. How much are you weighing longevity vs. peak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnChimpo Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Jordan was a very solid perimeter defender. By nature of his position, his defensive impact is SIGNIFICANTLY less than people who offer rim protection. In a year where Hakeem Olajuwan was in his prime, Michael Jordan should not have gotten a single DPOY vote, much less won the award. People have gotten WAY smarter about what makes players good and productive defenders. Okay? If he was very solid then you just admitted scoring wasn’t his only impact like you said previously. Besides, the point I addressed was only based on scoring, so I think we’re done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 1 minute ago, JohnChimpo said: Okay? If he was very solid then you just admitted scoring wasn’t his only impact like you said previously. Besides, the point I addressed was only based on scoring, so I think we’re done. Being a very solid perimeter defender isn't impactful enough for it to have any notable merit in a GOAT discussion. Being a 68th percentile impact defender in a given year isn't relevant when the competition is Russell, Kareem, Wilt, and to a lesser extent Lebron. Those guys (minus Lebron) are 99th percentile impact defenders of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnChimpo Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Being a very solid perimeter defender isn't impactful enough for it to have any notable merit in a GOAT discussion. Being a 68th percentile impact defender in a given year isn't relevant when the competition is Russell, Kareem, Wilt, and to a lesser extent Lebron. Those guys (minus Lebron) are 99th percentile impact defenders of all time. You’re the only one having a GOAT discussion. The other guy was addressing scoring stats as it related to NFL defensive stats, and I was addressing Jordan vs LeBron as scorers, not overall players. I’m not going to derail this thread anymore. Neither one of them played defense in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, JohnChimpo said: You’re the only one having a GOAT discussion. The other guy was addressing scoring stats as it related to NFL defensive stats, and I was addressing Jordan vs LeBron as scorers, not overall players. I’m not going to derail this thread anymore. Neither one of them played defense in the NFL. The other guy made a horrendous comparison. Saying that the stats of modern pass rushers are inflated due to an increase in passing attempts is a fair point. Conflating that point to Lebron James having more overall points than Michael Jordan because he played in more games is idiotic. If the point was that modern pass rushers played more years due to modern medicine so they had more overall sacks, that comparison might make sense. But the far more logical comparison would be, Michael Jordan's (or Wilt Chamberlain's) point totals are inflated because they shot the ball a lot more than Lebron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmorecareful Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 15 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: 1. The 3.3 FGA/Game number increases to an INCREDIBLY different 3.7 FGA/Game upon removing the Wizards years for Jordan. Try again. 2. Why would we remove Jordan's 18th* and 19th* seasons in the league, when Lebron is currently leading the league in points/game in his 19th season. 3. Jordan has a usage rate of 33.3%. It's 33.5% when you remove the Wizards year. Lebron has a usage rate of 31.6%. That's especially telling when Lebron has an AST% of 36.4% vs. Jordan's 24.9%. 4. Yes, we've discussed that Jordan scores more per game. . . because he shot the ball quite a bit more. *when accounting for various retirements. Jordan had 10 consecutive scoring titles in the NBA… and if u take away the wizards years his ppg jumps to 32… so even with 3.7 more shots at 51% from the field it still won’t account for the 5 points per game less lebron would average… Not to mention lebron shoots way more 3 pointers and plays in an era where the rules cater directly to offensive play whereas Jordan averages 35 ppg in a season (87/88) where calling for iso was ruled (illegal offense) hand checking wasn’t a foul and there was no 3 seconds in the key for interior defenders… Lebron has plenty arguments for aspects of his game being superior… Scoring just isn’t one of em… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 56 minutes ago, bmorecareful said: Jordan had 10 consecutive scoring titles in the NBA… and if u take away the wizards years his ppg jumps to 32… so even with 3.7 more shots at 51% from the field it still won’t account for the 5 points per game less lebron would average… Not to mention lebron shoots way more 3 pointers and plays in an era where the rules cater directly to offensive play whereas Jordan averages 35 ppg in a season (87/88) where calling for iso was ruled (illegal offense) hand checking wasn’t a foul and there was no 3 seconds in the key for interior defenders… Lebron has plenty arguments for aspects of his game being superior… Scoring just isn’t one of em… 1. Spare me the bull**** about Jordan's scoring being so suppressed by his era. The league average PPG in Jordan's Bulls year was 105.1. The league average PPG in Lebron's career was 102.2. The league average in PPG during 87/88 was 108.2 PPG. Scoring was completely out of hand in the late 80s. Lebron didn't get a year where the league average was over 108.2 PPG until he was 34. There is no argument to be made that scoring was easier for Jordan than it was for Lebron. The league average PPG in Lebron's first 10 years was 98.1. The league average PPG in Jordan's first 10 years was 107.4. This isn't close. It was significantly easier to score during Jordan's career. 2. Again, why are we taking away the Wizards years at this point? Lebron's been in the NBA for 19 years. Jordan played 19 years if you credit him for 93, 94, 99, 00, and 01. If you're comfortable pulling away Jordan's Wizards years, do you pull off Lebron's rookie year. Can you pull off Lebron's SEVEN worst years and make this comparison? 3. Jordan averaged 31.5 PPG with the Bulls. Not 32. Jordan's 4.4 PPG advantage compared to 3.7 FGA is extremely similar. Adding 3.7 FGA at a 54.5% eFG is an increase of 4.0 points. That means Jordan's PPG advantage is an incredible 0.4 PPG. 4. Lebron shooting more 3 pointers is a mark in favor of Lebron. Lebron kills Jordan in 3 point shooting. Jordan is a 28.8% 3 point shooter when the 3 point line was at regular distance. Lebron is a 34.6% 3 point shooter. Lebron is an almost 6 percentage points better 3point shooter. 5. No, Jordan had 10 scoring titles in 12 years. He dipped out for a year and played 20% of a year. David Robinson and Shaq each have a scoring title. Jordan saved himself a ton of exhaustion and mileage by taking that time off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmorecareful Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said: 1. Spare me the bull**** about Jordan's scoring being so suppressed by his era. The league average PPG in Jordan's Bulls year was 105.1. The league average PPG in Lebron's career was 102.2. The league average in PPG during 87/88 was 108.2 PPG. Scoring was completely out of hand in the late 80s. Lebron didn't get a year where the league average was over 108.2 PPG until he was 34. There is no argument to be made that scoring was easier for Jordan than it was for Lebron. The league average PPG in Lebron's first 10 years was 98.1. The league average PPG in Jordan's first 10 years was 107.4. This isn't close. It was significantly easier to score during Jordan's career. 2. Again, why are we taking away the Wizards years at this point? Lebron's been in the NBA for 19 years. Jordan played 19 years if you credit him for 93, 94, 99, 00, and 01. If you're comfortable pulling away Jordan's Wizards years, do you pull off Lebron's rookie year. Can you pull off Lebron's SEVEN worst years and make this comparison? 3. Jordan averaged 31.5 PPG with the Bulls. Not 32. Jordan's 4.4 PPG advantage compared to 3.7 FGA is extremely similar. Adding 3.7 FGA at a 54.5% eFG is an increase of 4.0 points. That means Jordan's PPG advantage is an incredible 0.4 PPG. 4. Lebron shooting more 3 pointers is a mark in favor of Lebron. Lebron kills Jordan in 3 point shooting. Jordan is a 28.8% 3 point shooter when the 3 point line was at regular distance. Lebron is a 34.6% 3 point shooter. Lebron is an almost 6 percentage points better 3point shooter. 5. No, Jordan had 10 scoring titles in 12 years. He dipped out for a year and played 20% of a year. David Robinson and Shaq each have a scoring title. Jordan saved himself a ton of exhaustion and mileage by taking that time off. 10 straight complete seasons he led the league in scoring… despite playing over 4 less season he still has more 30 40 50 and 60 point games… like what is the debate lol… I’m so confused When Jordan retired in 98 his career average was 32.1… Literally no one believes Lebron is a better scorer than Jordan except maybe some Lebron fans…. U gotta relax my boy… Lets take this a step further… Jordan is also the all time leader in playoff ppg… 33.45 ppg… Lebron is a distant 6th at 28.69… like what are we even talking about here… lol Edited April 3, 2022 by bmorecareful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, bmorecareful said: 10 straight complete seasons he led the league in scoring… despite playing over 4 less season he still has more 30 40 50 and 60 point games… like what is the debate lol… I’m so confused The debate is whether or not he's a better scorer than his historical comparisons. Some will say yes on the basis of PPG production. Others will say no on the basis that his overall production isn't significantly better, his efficiency isn't as good, and he only carries the PPG advantage on the basis of FGA/game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmorecareful Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: The debate is whether or not he's a better scorer than his historical comparisons. Some will say yes on the basis of PPG production. Others will say no on the basis that his overall production isn't significantly better, his efficiency isn't as good, and he only carries the PPG advantage on the basis of FGA/game. Nah ur simplifying it by acting like if he took 3 more **** he would average the same amount…. But I digress people are always gonna believe what they choose… but with my own eyes I’ve never seen Jordan average 16.7 in the finals… and that’s why Lebron could never be GOAT beyond the fact that Jordan is clearly the better scorer.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, bmorecareful said: Nah ur simplifying it by acting like if he took 3 more **** he would average the same amount…. But I digress people are always gonna believe what they choose… but with my own eyes I’ve never seen Jordan average 16.7 in the finals… and that’s why Lebron could never be GOAT beyond the fact that Jordan is clearly the better scorer.. Okay, let's say hypothetically his eFG falls to like 30% on shots beyond what he's already taken., that still means Jordan would score only 1 PPG more while having the advantage of playing in an easier era to score. In the playoffs: Jordan averaged 33.4 PPG on 25.1 FGA/Game at 56.8% TS. Lebron averages 28.7 PPG on 20.7 FGA/Game at 58.3% TS. 4.7 more points on 4.3 more FGA isn't that impressive when you're talking about that level of volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbertGOAT Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 Given the new subject matter of this thread, I'm going to make an NFL defense out of NBA players. LE: Wilt Chamberlain DT: Shaq RE: Hakeem Olajuwon LOLB: MJ ROLB: Kobe ILB: Giannis Antetokounmpo ILB: Ron Artest CB: Russell Westbrook CB: Steph Curry FS: Kevin Durant SS: LeBron James And Jordan is a better scorer than LeBron. Stop the stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said: Given the new subject matter of this thread, I'm going to make an NFL defense out of NBA players. LE: Wilt Chamberlain DT: Shaq RE: Hakeem Olajuwon LOLB: MJ ROLB: Kobe ILB: Giannis Antetokounmpo ILB: Ron Artest CB: Russell Westbrook CB: Steph Curry FS: Kevin Durant SS: LeBron James And Jordan is a better scorer than LeBron. Stop the stupidity. DL: Chamberlain/Charles Barkley/Dejuan Blair/David Robinson LB: Lebron/Shaq/Giannis CB: Iverson/Gary Payton S: Wade/Nate Robinson And he may be, but it's extremely close when taking into account era and volume. Edited April 4, 2022 by AlexGreen#20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 Basketball...😫 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 On 4/2/2022 at 9:03 PM, AlexGreen#20 said: Jordan was a very solid perimeter defender. By nature of his position, his defensive impact is SIGNIFICANTLY less than people who offer rim protection. In a year where Hakeem Olajuwan was in his prime, Michael Jordan should not have gotten a single DPOY vote, much less won the award. People have gotten WAY smarter about what makes players good and productive defenders. Very solid perimeter defender = 9x first team all-defense??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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