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Which of these has more of an impact?


Hunter2_1

More of an impact on winning  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. CB vs Pass rusher

    • Shut down cornerback
      15
    • Elite pass rusher
      33


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49 minutes ago, Pugger said:

If you have an elite pass rusher he can help make a pedestrian secondary look competent.  Even the best cover corners can't cover forever if the QB has all week back there to scan the field waiting for a receiver to get open.

Similarly there are the coverage sacks. QB has to hold on longer beause receivers can't get separation, leaving the DE to finally get home. I think you can scheme a pass rusher out of the game (extra blocker, screens, quick throws etc), a bit harder if a corner is taking an entire side of the field out.

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3 hours ago, Pugger said:

If you have an elite pass rusher he can help make a pedestrian secondary look competent.  Even the best cover corners can't cover forever if the QB has all week back there to scan the field waiting for a receiver to get open.

Works both ways. A pedestrian pass rush will look fine if you have a strong secondary that can keep the receivers at bay until you can finally get pressure. If they are both horrible you are screwed one way or the other. But we aren't talking about units, we are talking about isolating an individual corner and pass rusher. Great pass rushers on average lines have been schemed around. You need more than one talent there. An elite shutdown corner can at least take away your best passing target in isolation. Regardless of everyone else. 

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Pass rush, by far. Elite corners are game-planned around. Entire playbooks and defensive philosophies are designed around a pass rush.

Ask yourselves this. When you listen to coaches talk about strategies and key factors in winning, what is always the one thing that ALL coaches bring up? "Getting after the QB" and "protecting the QB". You don't hear "well our corners have to shutdown the recievers"....and there's a reason for that.

A couple more things to ponder: 
1) Why do you think that we're seeing more and more offenses use an extra lineman up-front as of late in some schemes? 
2) Why don't we see any true shutdown corners in the league anymore?
3) When was the last time you saw a team use a #1 pick in the draft on a cornerback? Yet, we have seen 3 pass rushers and 2 offensive lineman get taken 1st overall in the last 15 years.
4) Why do teams prefer to use higher draft picks on pass-rushers and offensive lineman and not cornerbacks? It's pretty clear which they value more.

Draft picks over the last 10 years

Drafted #1 overall

  • # of pass-rushers: 2
  • # of offensive lineman: 2
  • # of defensive backs: 0

Drafted within the top 3

  • # of pass-rushers: 12
  • # of offensive lineman: 5
  • # of Cornerbacks/Safties: 0

Drafted within the top-5

  • # of pass-rushers: 16
  • # of offensive lineman: 9
  • # of Cornerbacks/Safties: 3 (2 cornerbacks - Peterson and Ramsey)

The answer to all of this is pretty simple. Games are won and lost in the trenches. Bottomline. 

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Another thing I'd like to address here is the overly stated label of a "shutdown corner". The definition of a shutdown corner seems to has lost it's true meaning and I really wish people(media included) would stop using this label as there is no such thing anymore in today's league, and is most likely gone forever. That label and it's true meaningfulness died years ago with Revis and Nnamdi being the last TRUE shutdown corners. I don't think alot of people realize just how difficult it is to be shutdown corner.

The real definition of shutdown corner can do ALL of the following and sustain this success over an extended period of time. Which again, we will most likely NEVER see again.

  1. A TRUE shutdown corner takes away 1/3 of the field without any over or under help! (This is NOT going to happen in today's league anymore)
  2. A TRUE shutdown corner can shadow the #1 reciever on every play! (Same as above, not going to happen anymore)
  3. A TRUE shutdown corner discourages the QB from targeting thier opposition! (I always laugh when I hear people say "X player is a shutdown corner", yet they're being targeted at a 16% clip
  4. A TRUE shutdown corner can do more than just play bump-and-run coverage! (i.e disguises and bait)
  5. A TRUE shutdown corner can do maintain the same success in both man coverage and zone! (There are have been some very good corners that can maintain a high success rate in zone packages but falter in man-coverage )

Again, we will most likely never see this anymore from any corner. 

3 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Similarly there are the coverage sacks. QB has to hold on longer beause receivers can't get separation, leaving the DE to finally get home. I think you can scheme a pass rusher out of the game (extra blocker, screens, quick throws etc), a bit harder if a corner is taking an entire side of the field out.

Yeah and how often and at what percentage of plays does this happen without ANY QB pressure? Now take that number and compare it to the percentage of plays where a QB pressure or sack occurs without the former. Coverage sacks happen at a much lesser rate % than the latter does.

2 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Shutdown CB

I can manufacture pass rush through scheme, but having an elite CB is invaluable in removing an offense's best receiving weapon.

And when was the last time you seen this happen over an extended period of time? This isn't some dumb madden video game. No one corner shadows the #1 receiver on every play, in every game. Especially without over-the-top saftey help or underneath coverage from LBers.

As I said above, shutdown corners do not exist anymore due to more defenses using switch tactics in their gameplans at a much higher rate than in past years in orderr to combat the new rules that heavily favor the passing game. 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

 

As I said above, shutdown corners do not exist anymore due to more defenses using switch tactics in their gameplans at a much higher rate than in past years in orderr to combat the new rules that heavily favor the passing game. 

 

 

So what is Lattimore, if not a shutdown corner. He's on pace to have only something like 38 balls thrown his way. QBs are literally frightened of passing near him. 

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9 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

So what is Lattimore, if not a shutdown corner. He's on pace to have only something like 38 balls thrown his way. QBs are literally frightened of passing near him. 

Often overlooked when discussing Lattimore and Saints D is how great Cam Jordan is also.  No, the Saints weren't good with him and only him, but now they have both.  We don't really know if they'd be good with Lattimore and only Lattimore.

Ken Crawley is also playing well, along with Vacarro, Von Bell, and Marcus Williams.  SO basically the entire Saints secondary has gone from complete and utter garbage the likes of which we had never seen, to a legitimately scary secondary.  It's a bit more than just Lattimore turning it around, but clearly Lattimore is playing on a whole other level right now.  

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1 hour ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Pass rush, by far. Elite corners are game-planned around. Entire playbooks and defensive philosophies are designed around a pass rush.

Ask yourselves this. When you listen to coaches talk about strategies and key factors in winning, what is always the one thing that ALL coaches bring up? "Getting after the QB" and "protecting the QB". You don't hear "well our corners have to shutdown the recievers"....and there's a reason for that.

A couple more things to ponder: 
1) Why do you think that we're seeing more and more offenses use an extra lineman up-front as of late in some schemes? 
2) Why don't we see any true shutdown corners in the league anymore?
3) When was the last time you saw a team use a #1 pick in the draft on a cornerback? Yet, we have seen 3 pass rushers and 2 offensive lineman get taken 1st overall in the last 15 years.
4) Why do teams prefer to use higher draft picks on pass-rushers and offensive lineman and not cornerbacks? It's pretty clear which they value more.

Draft picks over the last 10 years

Drafted #1 overall

  • # of pass-rushers: 2
  • # of offensive lineman: 2
  • # of defensive backs: 0

Drafted within the top 3

  • # of pass-rushers: 12
  • # of offensive lineman: 5
  • # of Cornerbacks/Safties: 0

Drafted within the top-5

  • # of pass-rushers: 16
  • # of offensive lineman: 9
  • # of Cornerbacks/Safties: 3 (2 cornerbacks - Peterson and Ramsey)

The answer to all of this is pretty simple. Games are won and lost in the trenches. Bottomline. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing I'd like to address here is the overly stated label of a "shutdown corner". The definition of a shutdown corner seems to has lost it's true meaning and I really wish people(media included) would stop using this label as there is no such thing anymore in today's league, and is most likely gone forever. That label and it's true meaningfulness died years ago with Revis and Nnamdi being the last TRUE shutdown corners. I don't think alot of people realize just how difficult it is to be shutdown corner.

The real definition of shutdown corner can do ALL of the following and sustain this success over an extended period of time. Which again, we will most likely NEVER see again.

  1. A TRUE shutdown corner takes away 1/3 of the field without any over or under help! (This is NOT going to happen in today's league anymore)
  2. A TRUE shutdown corner can shadow the #1 reciever on every play! (Same as above, not going to happen anymore)
  3. A TRUE shutdown corner discourages the QB from targeting thier opposition! (I always laugh when I hear people say "X player is a shutdown corner", yet they're being targeted at a 16% clip
  4. A TRUE shutdown corner can do more than just play bump-and-run coverage! (i.e disguises and bait)
  5. A TRUE shutdown corner can do maintain the same success in both man coverage and zone! (There are have been some very good corners that can maintain a high success rate in zone packages but falter in man-coverage )

Again, we will most likely never see this anymore from any corner. 

Yeah and how often and at what percentage of plays does this happen without ANY QB pressure? Now take that number and compare it to the percentage of plays where a QB pressure or sack occurs without the former. Coverage sacks happen at a much lesser rate % than the latter does.

And when was the last time you seen this happen over an extended period of time? This isn't some dumb madden video game. No one corner shadows the #1 receiver on every play, in every game. Especially without over-the-top saftey help or underneath coverage from LBers.

As I said above, shutdown corners do not exist anymore due to more defenses using switch tactics in their gameplans at a much higher rate than in past years in orderr to combat the new rules that heavily favor the passing game. 

 

 

You just made the case for having a shutdown CB even more sensible of a choice over the common elite pass rusher. I'll take the rarity of the elite cover man, thank you very much.

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25 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

So what is Lattimore, if not a shutdown corner. He's on pace to have only something like 38 balls thrown his way. QBs are literally frightened of passing near him. 

I already explained why in my post above.

 

4 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said:

You just made the case for having a shutdown CB even more sensible of a choice over the common elite pass rusher. I'll take the rarity of the elite cover man, thank you very much.

Great counter-argument. That's very convincing. Now show me one corner that fits this description? I'll wait....

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This is an easy one for me. The elite pass rusher all day.

An elite corner single handedly takes away one receiver for the game. Which forces the QB to go to other targets. An elite pass rusher has the potential to take away the pass on any play, making all of the receivers on the field irrelevant for that play. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Pass rush, by far. Elite corners are game-planned around. Entire playbooks and defensive philosophies are designed around a pass rush.

A couple more things to ponder: 

1) Why do you think that we're seeing more and more offenses use an extra lineman up-front as of late in some schemes


As I said above, shutdown corners do not exist anymore due to more defenses using switch tactics in their gameplans at a much higher rate than in past years in orderr to combat the new rules that heavily favor the passing game. 

 

 

I'm going to be honest, although you had a lot to say, it really doesn't amount to much.

Take the first bolded statement for example. There are no (zero, zilch, nada) defensive coordinators that are going to dedicate their time to designing a pass rush who also don't rightfully compliment it with coverage schemes.

The defense has 8 men in the box but the offense is tackle heavy in 21 personnel? Who has the advantage and why? Do you dare run vs 8 in the box or audible out in this situation to a pass?

Explain "switch tactics" if you will for me. Is this zone or man coverage or am I asking a trick question?

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30 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

This is an easy one for me. The elite pass rusher all day.

An elite corner single handedly takes away one receiver for the game. Which forces the QB to go to other targets. An elite pass rusher has the potential to take away the pass on any play, making all of the receivers on the field irrelevant for that play. 

 

 

Or he gets double teamed and does nothing. You are guaranteed to take away a receiver from the game with a CB

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2 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

I'm going to be honest, although you had a lot to say, it really doesn't amount to much.

Or you're just not understanding it or choosing to ignore it. I'll take the NFL coaches and GM's word for which position is more important over any random fan, any day of the week.

2 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Take the first bolded statement for example. There are no (zero, zilch, nada) defensive coordinators that are going to dedicate their time to designing a pass rush who also don't rightfully compliment it with coverage schemes

Tell that teams that, for better or worse, rely on a four-man rush almost exclusively. Or coordinators that rely too much on 6-man rushes. Tell that to coordinators that design blitz packages. Tell that to the GM's that see more value in pass-rushers than they do corners. 

They say it over and over in press conferences, in how they draft, their pay-scales, etc. All of it tails back to the same thing. It all starts up front.

2 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

The defense has 8 men in the box but the offense is tackle heavy in 21 personnel? Who has the advantage and why? Do you dare run vs 8 in the box or audible out in this situation to a pass?

This isn't madden. And it's not about what your or I would do either. It's about what the real coaches and teams do in situations.  

I don't see your angle here but teams do this all the time. Literally. Just ask the Jags, Bears, Niners, Titans, Patriots, and every other offense that sees 8-man fronts over 50% of the time. It doesn't stop them from running the ball. Again, I don't see what your angle is here and what this is to do with anything. 

2 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Explain "switch tactics" if you will for me. Is this zone or man coverage or am I asking a trick question?

It's literally both. Outside man, underneath zone. Outside zone, underneath man. Middle-zone, outside man. etc. Almost no team in the league runs either just zone or man coverage exclusively anymore. It's a combination. Hence why defenses are running more packages that replace a linebacker with an additional DB or vice-versa.

Short version. The corners are the first and last thing that QB looks at prior to snap because in alot of cases that is how you can determine whether it's man or zone on the outside. So a corner and a saftey(over-the-top) or a linebacker(underneath) with all show the same thing in a pre-snap alignment, only to change it up following the snap.  

It's a baiting disguise in coverage to get the receiver and QB to target a particular spot on the field that looks like it should be open. This either forces the QB to make a low percentage throw or at least take away his first read entirely. It's used alot now as more receivers/QB's use alot more sophisticated option routes than before.

For example. A defense shows a cover-2, 2 safeties high. The QB and the receiver on the weak-side see this and both aim for the usual weak spots, which is generally between the corner and saftey. This is automatically the QB's first read. Instead, the defenses drops into man-coverage on the outside with the saftey help while the WLB blitzes instead of dropping in his zone that the QB initially read.    

It's not like it used to be where a corner was asked to adapt and read the receiver after the snap. Things have changed. It's all pre-determined by design now, which is why I said we'll most likely never see another true shutdown corner again. All corners get help in coverage now.

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6 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Or you're just not understanding it or choosing to ignore it. I'll take the NFL coaches and GM's word for which position is more important over any random fan, any day of the week.

Tell that teams that, for better or worse, rely on a four-man rush almost exclusively. Or coordinators that rely too much on 6-man rushes. Tell that to coordinators that design blitz packages. Tell that to the GM's that see more value in pass-rushers than they do corners. 

They say it over and over in press conferences, in how they draft, their pay-scales, etc. All of it tails back to the same thing. It all starts up front.

You're missing the point. As a defensive coach, coverage is just as an integral part of the scheme. There's no such thing as developing a half-assed defense with a strict focus on the pass rush. And technically speaking, sending anything more than 4 defenders is called a blitz, not a rush.

 

Quote

This isn't madden. And it's not about what your or I would do either. It's about what the real coaches and teams do in situations.  

I don't see your angle here but teams do this all the time. Literally. Just ask the Jags, Bears, Niners, Titans, Patriots, and every other offense that sees 8-man fronts over 50% of the time. It doesn't stop them from running the ball. Again, I don't see what your angle is here and what this is to do with anything. 

I'm not a gamer so you can drop the ridiculous Madden references. Point was I was trying to scope out your knowledge for the game to get a gauge on how to address you.

Here's what real coaches do: In that situation, regarding of 8 men in the box, if your using tackle heavy with 21 personnel you just created 9 gaps and would therefore run at the bubble created, wherever that might be depending on the defensive alignment. You do this until you find the defense cheating in some manner (LBs and/or safeties are aligning closer to the LOS, edge rushers are running too hard upfield or not at all to maintain gap integrity) and then you call a constraint play, such as play-action or screen, to press the defense back into playing honest. Tackle heavy formations are rarely used to double a pass rusher. Most often pass rushers are paid extra attention by a TE or RB on a delay who chip block to knock them off balance before they proceed into their route.

By any chance, do you have the statistics to back up this percentage of 8 man fronts?

 

Quote

It's literally both. Outside man, underneath zone. Outside zone, underneath man. Middle-zone, outside man. etc. Almost no team in the league runs either just zone or man coverage exclusively anymore. It's a combination. Hence why defenses are running more packages that replace a linebacker with an additional DB or vice-versa.

Yikes.This makes absolutely no sense. That's not how it works. Yes, defense's mix their coverages, but it's nothing like you described above. The only instances where you have mixed man and zone type coverages within the same defensive play call is typically when facing a 3x1, or 1x3 set. Often you'll defend this by playing a MEG technique (Man Everywhere he Goes) to the boundary (which is typically where the single receiver is aligned) with possible bracket coverage over top, and Man, Zone, or usually Pattern Match to the fieldside (which typically features the 3 receivers). Pattern Match (which is very common these days) can also be played by the defense as a whole but again is nothing like you posted. PM is played as zone, by everyone, until receivers declare their routes (usually within 5-7 yards) and then the defenders ID their receiver from there and follow through with man coverage.

 

Quote

Short version. The corners are the first and last thing that QB looks at prior to snap because in alot of cases that is how you can determine whether it's man or zone on the outside. So a corner and a saftey(over-the-top) or a linebacker(underneath) with all show the same thing in a pre-snap alignment, only to change it up following the snap. It's a baiting disguise in coverage to get the receiver and QB to target a particular spot on the field that looks like it should be open. This either forces the QB to make a low percentage throw or at least take away his first read entirely.

So, just being curious again and digging around for your knowledge of the game, how does a QB decide pre-snap what the coverage might be?

But, again, this is only half the process. Safety rotation is the primary ID as it will tell a QB whether the middle of the field is open (MOFO) or closed (MOFC). After this split-second ID is what will tell the QB whether he can attack the MOF and the sidelines, or the seams and then comes the ID of coverage type. This all generally happens in about 1.5 seconds. Post-snap movement coupled with the route concept that are called is what determines a QB's progression reads within those concepts.

 

Quote

It's a baiting disguise in coverage to get the receiver and QB to target a particular spot on the field that looks like it should be open. This either forces the QB to make a low percentage throw or at least take away his first read entirely. It's used alot now as more receivers/QB's use alot more sophisticated option routes than before.

For example. A defense shows a cover-2, 2 safeties high. The QB and the receiver on the weak-side see this and both aim for the usual weak spots, which is generally between the corner and saftey. This is automatically the QB's first read. Instead, the defenses drops into man-coverage on the outside with the saftey help while the WLB blitzes instead of dropping in his zone that the QB initially read.    

It's not like it used to be where a corner was asked to adapt and read the receiver after the snap. Things have changed. It's all pre-determined by design now, which is why I said we'll most likely never see another true shutdown corner again. All corners get help in coverage now.

Route concepts are very much the same. Dagger, Mills, NCAA, Sail, Smash, Spot/Snag, Tare, Tosser, etc. have been around for quite a while now. Very little has changed in that aspect. The biggest advantage available in the modern game is how these concepts are easily communicated by single words rather than the long language used by, say, the west coast scheme, and how they are packaged.

Coverage is NOT predetermined in many instances. If you're playing Pattern Match, Banjo over two receivers, Split-Flow with the LBs, etc. everything is determined post-snap depending on the routes or concepts being run.

Again you've posted a lot of information that doesn't actually translate to the field of play. 

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