Which of these has more of an impact?

[Malik]

Shut down corner. Jets were able to have a #1 defense with just an elite corner and a bunch of average defenders at literally every other position.

[eagles18]

one elite pass rusher isn't enough... see J.J. Watt. When Darrelle Revis was in his prime, he nearly had half the field shut down - he forced the qb to only throw to certain areas. 

[SteelKing728]

Its tough. I prefer DL over Secondary, but I took top CB over top Edge Rusher.

I've seen some top CBs shut down one side of the field and totally limit an offense. Revis, Peterson, Rhodes etc.

Its a tough question and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here.

[renndawg37]

23 hours ago, lancerman said:

Or he gets double teamed and does nothing. You are guaranteed to take away a receiver from the game with a CB

If you double team him all day, that limits your playcalling, however. 

Good question OP...I think I would lean shutdown corner, but only if they are truly "shutdown", like Revis or Asomugha in their prime. 

[JAF-N72EX]

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

As a defensive coach, coverage is just as an integral part of the scheme.

Of course it is. That goes without saying. It's a team sport for christ sakes. Who ever said that it didn't? That's not what is being argued here. What is being argued is which position is more important. 

That's like saying a run game on offense isn't just as an integral part of the offensive scheme as a passing game. We know all know it is. But we also know which is more important to teams overall success as well. 

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

There's no such thing as developing a half-assed defense with a strict focus on the pass rush.

Again, I never said this.....not even close.  

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Point was I was trying to scope out your knowledge for the game to get a gauge on how to address you.

That's kind of weird. What does this have to do with anything regarding the topic?  

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Here's what real coaches do: In that situation, regarding of 8 men in the box, if your using tackle heavy with 21 personnel you just created 9 gaps and would therefore run at the bubble created, wherever that might be depending on the defensive alignment. You do this until you find the defense cheating in some manner (LBs and/or safeties are aligning closer to the LOS, edge rushers are running too hard upfield or not at all to maintain gap integrity) and then you call a constraint play, such as play-action or screen, to press the defense back into playing honest. Tackle heavy formations are rarely used to double a pass rusher. Most often pass rushers are paid extra attention by a TE or RB on a delay who chip block to knock them off balance before they proceed into their route.

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic whatsoever, but......whatever. 

What you described in your initial (weird test) here is situational and team based that cannot be determined because of the fact you left too much out of the equation in this scenario. Such as; down and distance, team personnel, formations, motion, etc.

Nothing what you described here is not what real coaches do. If that were the case, then explain why a Brady led Patriots of all teams see more 8-man fronts than most teams in the league despite Brady being on pace for 618 attempts, running a PA on 22% of the time(6th in the league), all the while running a 21 package more than any other grouping except for the obvious common 11? Because it sure as hell isn't because teams respect a freaking Gislee, that's for damn sure(52% of his runs alone have been against 8-man fronts).

Again, it's all situational and team based and nothing what you described. The Patriots and Gislee see more 8-man fronts because it's the best way to defend their particular offensive scheme that utilizes the short game with timing routes. 

Another example. Conversely. Look at the Bears. They also see 8-man fronts over 50% of the time. Run a heavy 21 package. Run a PA only 12.6% of the time (29th in the league). And teams DO respect their run game because that is all they do is run the ball as FOx only attempts 8 passes a game(exaggerated a little but you get the point).  

Yet, despite of all of this, they have one of the best run games in the league. I'll say it again. it's all situational and team based and nothing what you described.

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Yikes.This makes absolutely no sense. That's not how it works. Yes, defense's mix their coverages, but it's nothing like you described above. The only instances where you have mixed man and zone type coverages within the same defensive play call is typically when facing a 3x1, or 1x3 set. Often you'll defend this by playing a MEG technique (Man Everywhere he Goes) to the boundary (which is typically where the single receiver is aligned) with possible bracket coverage over top, and Man, Zone, or usually Pattern Match to the fieldside (which typically features the 3 receivers). Pattern Match (which is very common these days) can also be played by the defense as a whole but again is nothing like you posted. PM is played as zone, by everyone, until receivers declare their routes (usually within 5-7 yards) and then the defenders ID their receiver from there and follow through with man coverage.

^^^Something else irrelevant to the topic.......

Hence my "short version". My entire point was sticking to the topic and explaining that there are no more shutdown corners in the league anymore as they all get help. 

And teams do not only run a mix coverage given that scenario either. The Seahawks are a perfect example of this as they have been running a heavy dose of mixed coverages for the last 5 years now. While primarily being a cover-3 and cover-1 zone defense. It's not the traditional cover-3. They mix up the underneath coverages (and LB blitzes) and leave the boundaries to play man coverage on the outside(mainly Sherman), and just as long as ET is healthy. 

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

So, just being curious again and digging around for your knowledge of the game, how does a QB decide pre-snap what the coverage might be?

okay, first of all, this is getting really weird.

Second of all, again, what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Third of all, I already explained this. At least the part that pertains to the actual discussion at hand anyhow (cornerbacks). Again the CB is the QB's first look and last look prior to the snap as it determines what type of coverage the corners are playing(man, zone, press, off, etc) and the favorable match-ups that are available to him based on the play-call. The last look at the corners are to either signal and/or look for any changes from the first look(i.e after a motion  - which is a tell sign of man/zone).

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

But, again, this is only half the process. Safety rotation is the primary ID as it will tell a QB whether the middle of the field is open (MOFO) or closed (MOFC). After this split-second ID is what will tell the QB whether he can attack the MOF and the sidelines, or the seams and then comes the ID of coverage type. This all generally happens in about 1.5 seconds. Post-snap movement coupled with the route concept that are called is what determines a QB's progression reads within those concepts.

........And this has to do with which position has more impact on a team how?

16 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Coverage is NOT predetermined in many instances. If you're playing Pattern Match, Banjo over two receivers, Split-Flow with the LBs, etc. everything is determined post-snap depending on the routes or concepts being run.

Reading back on my post, admittedly I worded it wrong as I talking about how shutdown corners in the past like Revis and Nnamdi, were given free range to shadow a particular defender without any pre-determined restraints by design like it is today. It's takes a special kind of corner to be able to pull this off and not a single coach in the league anymore is just going to hand out this type of responsibility freely to a single player unless that particular corner shows that he can be a true shutdown. Even then, the chances of a coach actually risking this type of potential liability will most likely never happen again. Especially given that most coaches are put on much shorter leashes.

[JAF-N72EX]

Nothing that you have posted has anything to do with my initial statement or anything even relevant to the topic. It's been off-the-wall, left-field comments and weird..."how to address you" type statements.

I read this site more than I post and I see this type of thing happen way too often on here, where a person responds to a topic or statement made by another user.and when that person responds back, they take the conversation in a totally different direction without even actually addressing the initial argument to begin with. Before you know it, both users are debating something completely irrelevant to the thread and just sucks the life out of it entirely. I'm sure nobody else cares to read through 3 pages of two users going back-and-forth about something so non-related and something that ultimately serves no real purpose at all. I know I sure as hell don't. And that is exactly what is starting to happen with you and I in this thread. 

I'm not doing that here with you or anyone anymore. Stay on topic and address my initial response to your quote or we can just end it now and agree to disagree. Your choice.

Now, If you feel like debating on which is position is more important, I'll be happy too. But let's start over from the beginning before this thread gets derailed any further. 

 You said:

On 11/10/2017 at 11:44 AM, Carmen Cygni said:

Shutdown CB

I can manufacture pass rush through scheme, but having an elite CB is invaluable in removing an offense's best receiving weapon.

I responded by saying:

On 11/10/2017 at 4:34 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

And when was the last time you seen this happen over an extended period of time?

[Non-Issue]

On 11/10/2017 at 6:27 PM, lancerman said:

Or he gets double teamed and does nothing. You are guaranteed to take away a receiver from the game with a CB

Which means little if they have two or three viable receiving options and the QB has time to pick apart the rest of the defense. Or if the offense is going 3 or 4 wide. Or if their top target is a Gronk type. All of those things lessen the play to play impact of a shutdown corner. I mean, sure, you can roll a safety somewhere else because you can afford to leave the CB on an island, but the pass rusher getting doubled just opens up the pass rush for the rest of the front 7. Allowing them to keep pressure on the QB and hampering the passing game. 

I think it is a lot easier to mask the lack of an elite CB through scheme than it is to mask the lack of an elite pass rusher through scheme. And I think the elite pass rusher has more of an impact on the players around him and the approach the defense takes. 

Imo, the most effective way to stop the passing game is by limiting the time the play needs to develop and the time the QB has to find the open man. You dont do that by covering the best receiver. You do that by getting after the QB. 

Just my opinion, of course.

[jrry32]

Pass rusher. 

[lancerman]

47 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

Which means little if they have two or three viable receiving options and the QB has time to pick apart the rest of the defense. Or if the offense is going 3 or 4 wide. Or if their top target is a Gronk type. All of those things lessen the play to play impact of a shutdown corner. I mean, sure, you can roll a safety somewhere else because you can afford to leave the CB on an island, but the pass rusher getting doubled just opens up the pass rush for the rest of the front 7. Allowing them to keep pressure on the QB and hampering the passing game. 

I think it is a lot easier to mask the lack of an elite CB through scheme than it is to mask the lack of an elite pass rusher through scheme. And I think the elite pass rusher has more of an impact on the players around him and the approach the defense takes. 

Imo, the most effective way to stop the passing game is by limiting the time the play needs to develop and the time the QB has to find the open man. You dont do that by covering the best receiver. You do that by getting after the QB. 

Just my opinion, of course.

But it means a lot if the one they shut down is Julio Jones or Antonio Brown both of who would gut most secondaries and dictate coverage on almost any team without a shutdown corner. Because no team has 2 super elite level guys. 

It obviously depends contextually on the makeup of the rest of the unit. But lets assume everyone else is baseline average. A shut down corner still shuts down the best WR on the team. That's just a constant. An elite pass rusher is more dependant on everything else. If the lines pretty average aside from him, doesn't really matter if you outscheme them. Also depends on the skill of the QB they are facing and their skillset. A dominant pass rusher would struggle against a QB like Brady if he were an exterior rusher, whereas he'd have more success if he were interior. There's just a lot more variables attached to the pass rusher. I'll take the sure thing. 

You double team a great pass rusher and scheme around a bunch of average guys, a great QB can still eat that up.

[Soko]

Why do people say “elite CBs shut down half/a third of the field”? 

[Carmen Cygni]

Apologies to the OP for my off-topic tangent. Back on track now . . .

Here are two different articles that counter that with a pass rusher ranked just under the QB an have the CBs 4th behind OT's.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/nfl-position-importance-ranking-value-every-player-053117

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000503855/article/ranking-each-positions-importance-from-quarterback-to-returner

Personally I'm still in favor of the shutdown CB, as you can manufacture QB pressure thru scheme on the front 7 while forcing the QB to forgo his favorite target. Much like how the Patriots thrived last year via coverage scheme and severely limiting the oppositions run game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Non-Issue]

18 hours ago, lancerman said:

But it means a lot if the one they shut down is Julio Jones or Antonio Brown both of who would gut most secondaries and dictate coverage on almost any team without a shutdown corner. Because no team has 2 super elite level guys. 

It obviously depends contextually on the makeup of the rest of the unit. But lets assume everyone else is baseline average. A shut down corner still shuts down the best WR on the team. That's just a constant. An elite pass rusher is more dependant on everything else. If the lines pretty average aside from him, doesn't really matter if you outscheme them. Also depends on the skill of the QB they are facing and their skillset. A dominant pass rusher would struggle against a QB like Brady if he were an exterior rusher, whereas he'd have more success if he were interior. There's just a lot more variables attached to the pass rusher. I'll take the sure thing. 

You double team a great pass rusher and scheme around a bunch of average guys, a great QB can still eat that up.

Thats great if they have one elite receiver. But that elite CB has far, far less of an impact if they dont.

Who is an elite CB going to cover when facing the Pats? Or the Eagles? Do you think an elite CB on Robert Woods is going to slow down the Rams offense? They arent going to miss a beat.

I can take an elite pass rusher and render a Julio Jones just as useless. And, at the same time, keep the QB from standing tall in the pocket and picking my team apart.

[Carmen Cygni]

On 11/10/2017 at 5:45 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

I already explained why in my post above.

 

Great counter-argument. That's very convincing. Now show me one corner that fits this description? I'll wait....

1st example: Xavier Rhodes. George Edwards doesn't deploy his CBs by left/right, or field/boundary, which allows Rhodes to shadow a particular receiver no matter where he aligns. 

[JAF-N72EX]

6 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

1st example: Xavier Rhodes. George Edwards doesn't deploy his CBs by left/right, or field/boundary, which allows Rhodes to shadow a particular receiver no matter where he aligns. 

Rhodes is not a shutdown corner though. And Edwards isn't the only DC that takes this same approach either.

Again man, being a shutdown corner takes a special kind of talent that is rarely seen. Like, maybe, once in a decade type of rarity. Which is a big part of the reason why we haven't seen one since the prime Aso/Revis days. Before them two came along and after the prime-time days, we saw other corners(Vincent, Madison, Woodson, etc) all have solid runs and showed glimpses of reaching that level, but ultimately fall just short of it due to not being able to maintain that same level for a long enough period of time. 

So while there are a handful of very good corners in the league (Harris, Rhodes, Sherman, Peterson, Verrett, etc), none of them are a true shutdown corner. This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread about people throwing that label around way too loosely. 

 

[Carmen Cygni]

14 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Rhodes is not a shutdown corner though. And Edwards isn't the only DC that takes this same approach either.

 

in 2016, Rhodes allowed a 39.2 opponents' passer rating and a league-best 41.8 percent catch rate, all the while lining up week in and week out against the opposition's best WR. IOW, he consistently shutdown his mark. Very good in the run game as well.

Well aware on your 2nd point. Was just explaining that it wasn't a Richard Sherman type situation where he strictly plays onr side of the field.