Which of these has more of an impact?

[Calvert28]

On 11/9/2017 at 11:38 AM, Hunter2_1 said:

Shut down corner. See how Lattimore is transforming NO's defense, directly leading to winning games. Can't be said for, say, Mack and the Raiders or Miller and Denver. It's an easy one for me. 

No. Simple way to evade a shut down corner is just to throw to the other side.

DE is a little more tricky to game plan against since they are near the QB every play. A great QB can use his receiving core to out gun any secondary. But it's a little harder to do when you are getting pressured almost every play. 

And even the best secondary can look average at best if a QB has all day to throw. Not Primetime, not Revis, Green, Woodson or another CB can stay on an island all day. Eventually the coverage breaks down. The pass rush has to be a factor to have any sort of success. Even if your shut down corner could. He can't cover all the other skill positions too. That's where a guy like Mack, or Bosa, or Watt makes all the difference in the world.

[JAF-N72EX]

5 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

in 2016, Rhodes allowed a 39.2 opponents' passer rating and a league-best 41.8 percent catch rate, all the while lining up week in and week out against the opposition's best WR. IOW, he consistently shutdown his mark. Very good in the run game as well.

Well aware on your 2nd point. Was just explaining that it wasn't a Richard Sherman type situation where he strictly plays onr side of the field.

I don't know where you got those stats from and so I'm going to assume that they're from PFF since that site is a very media driven cesspool which draws views, which equals dollar signs, and one site that I do not take serious at all in any sense of the word whatsoever. They hand out a generated spreadsheet to hired college kids(to save money on the overhead), that are already pressed for time as it is, to look at each play LIVE as they happen and fill in the blanks without even looking at the all-22 or spider-cam that is only released to coaches. This is how they release their garbage just hours following a Monday night game every week. The all-22 don't even get released until early Wednesday(late Tuesday depending on your time-zone). So they're not even seeing the half of what their jotting down in those blanks to begin with. Can you judge each corner by just watching live footage? That's obviously a rhetorical question.

Sorry, now I'm the one getting off-topic a bit here. My apologies, I just hate Collingswrth, that site and everything it stands for is all. And if I'm wrong, and that is not where those stats are coming from, I apologize for that as well. 

Anyways, let's say those stats are true. It still doesn't show that Rhodes is a shutdown corner as he was still targeted 72 times(23rd highest in the league), over 5 times per game. A TRUE shutdown corner puts fear into offenses and QB's and takes those targets away, entirely. In fact, I would comfortably argue that he isn't even the best secondary player on his own team. Something else that a couple of shutdown corners in the past did not have the benefit of.  

To put this into better prospective. Here is what a true shutdown corner looks like in comparison to Rhodes. The better value = green. The orange is irrelevant due to differences. 

Nnamdi Asomugha
						Adjusted				Non-Adjusted
	Tgts	Tgt%	Avg Dist	YAC	Rank	Suc%	Rank	PaYd	Rank	Suc%	PaYd
2007	32	8.60%	11	0.7	1	58%	14	5.9	15	57%	6.2
2008	38	10.90%	14.9	2.4	9	61%	3	5.8	4	61%	5.8
Totals/AVG	70	9.75%	12.95	1.5	5	60%	8.5	5.9	9.5	59%	6
Xavier Rhodes
						Adjusted				Non-Adjusted
	Tgts	Tgt%	Avg Dist	YAC	Rank	Suc%	Rank	PaYd	Rank	Suc%	PaYd
2016	72	19.40%	13.7	3.4	46	51%	31	6.6	17	51%	6.9
2015	76	19.00%	14.2	2	10	47%	60	6.7	14	47%	7.4
Totals/AVG	148	19.20%	13.95	2.7	28	49%	45.5	6.7	15.5	49%	7.15

And just to be clear here. I'm not knocking Rhodes as a corner in general in comparison with his peers. But to call him a shutdown corner is far from the truth.

edit: Forgot to mention. I only picked Nnamdi stats from 07 and 08 as they were his 3rd and 4th seasons as an official starter in comparison to Rhodes' 3rd and 4th years as well. 

[JAF-N72EX]

56 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

No. Simple way to evade a shut down corner is just to throw to the other side.

DE is a little more tricky to game plan against since they are near the QB every play. A great QB can use his receiving core to out gun any secondary. But it's a little harder to do when you are getting pressured almost every play. 

And even the best secondary can look average at best if a QB has all day to throw. Not Primetime, not Revis, Green, Woodson or another CB can stay on an island all day. Eventually the coverage breaks down. The pass rush has to be a factor to have any sort of success. Even if your shut down corner could. He can't cover all the other skill positions too. That's where a guy like Mack, or Bosa, or Watt makes all the difference in the world.

The Falcons game last night was a prime example of this. Clayborn alone neutralized the Cowboys entire pass game.  

[Iamcanadian]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:48 AM, Pugger said:

If you have an elite pass rusher he can help make a pedestrian secondary look competent.  Even the best cover corners can't cover forever if the QB has all week back there to scan the field waiting for a receiver to get open.

End of story, a great pass rusher makes any secondary better, but a great CB without a pass rusher, can become pretty mediocre if the QB has all day for his receivers to get open. NFL teams will absolutely always draft an elite pass rusher ahead of an elite CB just for the above reason.

[Calvert28]

5 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

The Falcons game last night was a prime example of this. Clayborn alone neutralized the Cowboys entire pass game.  

I would more so say, Chaz Green but yea, lets give Clayborn some credit.

[Carmen Cygni]

8 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I don't know where you got those stats from and so I'm going to assume that they're from PFF since that site is a very media driven cesspool which draws views, which equals dollar signs, and one site that I do not take serious at all in any sense of the word whatsoever. They hand out a generated spreadsheet to hired college kids(to save money on the overhead), that are already pressed for time as it is, to look at each play LIVE as they happen and fill in the blanks without even looking at the all-22 or spider-cam that is only released to coaches. This is how they release their garbage just hours following a Monday night game every week. The all-22 don't even get released until early Wednesday(late Tuesday depending on your time-zone). So they're not even seeing the half of what their jotting down in those blanks to begin with. Can you judge each corner by just watching live footage? That's obviously a rhetorical question.

Sorry, now I'm the one getting off-topic a bit here. My apologies, I just hate Collingswrth, that site and everything it stands for is all. And if I'm wrong, and that is not where those stats are coming from, I apologize for that as well. 

 

We certainly agree on something. PFF is garbage as is Collinsworthless. We've just taken a different POV concerning the topic at hand here.

Rhodes statistics in my previous post where taken from Bleacher Report article and they didn't cite PFF as the source. As for the the other statistics you gave, as with all statistical data, they were chosen to support your agenda.

[Carmen Cygni]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

The Falcons game last night was a prime example of this. Clayborn alone neutralized the Cowboys entire pass game.  

All that was proved is that Garret and Linehan are absolute morons who are incapable of in game adjustments. Not once did they think to alter their approach to Clayborne and chip him with either a TE or RB and this despite also having to play a back up tackle in Green.  Kudos to Claiborne, but the Cowboy's offense deserved every sack and pressure they got due to ignorance and ignoring the problem.

Designating TE and/or RB help is problem solving 101 when facing edge rushing issues, and not once was that solution attempted.

[Carmen Cygni]

7 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

End of story, a great pass rusher makes any secondary better, but a great CB without a pass rusher, can become pretty mediocre if the QB has all day for his receivers to get open. NFL teams will absolutely always draft an elite pass rusher ahead of an elite CB just for the above reason.

And vice versa.

[Hunter2_1]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

The Falcons game last night was a prime example of this. Clayborn alone neutralized the Cowboys entire pass game.  

Clayborn is an elite pass rusher now? 

That's undervaluing the option, significantly. 

[JAF-N72EX]

4 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Clayborn is an elite pass rusher now? 

That's undervaluing the option, significantly. 

In that game he was. Yeah.

[Carmen Cygni]

On 11/13/2017 at 9:17 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

In that game he was. Yeah.

Nah, man. A defender who has never once posted double digit sack numbers in a season, whose only once eclipsed 6 total sacks in an entire season, whom benefited from playing against a backup tackle, and got 1v1 looks the entire game doesn't designate him as an elite pass rusher any more than any other player who, say, manages to commandeer a player of the week award deserves such recognition of being elite either. That's just silly.

[JAF-N72EX]

LOL, the lack of comprehension in this thread is funny. But I also get the feeling that those that are reading this wrong are only doing so because it doesn't fit their narrative.

[Carmen Cygni]

 

This statement . . .

On 11/11/2017 at 6:14 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

It's takes a special kind of corner to be able to pull this off and not a single coach in the league anymore is just going to hand out this type of responsibility freely to a single player unless that particular corner shows that he can be a true shutdown. Even then, the chances of a coach actually risking this type of potential liability will most likely never happen again. Especially given that most coaches are put on much shorter leashes.

 

Is directly contradicted by this one of yours, when proven to you that coaches do utilize this tactic with shutdown CBs in today's game . .

On 11/12/2017 at 11:04 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

Rhodes is not a shutdown corner though. And Edwards isn't the only DC that takes this same approach either.

 

 

Just as this post referring to elite play in a single game performance . . .

On 11/13/2017 at 9:17 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

In that game he was. Yeah.

 

Is directly contradicted by this previous statement of yours in reference to elite CB play over time . . .

On 11/10/2017 at 4:34 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

And when was the last time you seen this happen over an extended period of time? This isn't some dumb madden video game.

 

 

 

So now I ask, rhetorically, . . .

23 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

LOL, the lack of comprehension in this thread is funny. But I also get the feeling that those that are reading this wrong are only doing so because it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

Who is the one changing the narrative here?

[Carmen Cygni]

Perhaps a way to further illustrate this comparison would be to take an elite pass rushers effectiveness, using some type of formula with a proper value of their number of pressures, sacks, and tipped balls, with that of a shutdown CB effectiveness using that same type of formula with a proper value of their number of passes defensed, interceptions, and times said CB successfully removed his receiver from being the QB's option via technique in coverage.

This would possibly be an ideal way to compare and visualize the impacts of these two positions, but then again I don't see anyone taking the time to do so without some sort of acceptable compensation of one's work. LOL And rightfully so.

[MSURacerDT55]

Nascar package = 2012 Super Bowl