Do you know enough to give up on Deshone Kizer?

[DizzyDean]

2 hours ago, Mastercheddaar said:

His inaccurate passing is only exposed more so because of his lack of WR talent. Maybe if he had a reliable WR, some of his flaws would not be as exposed. Also it sucks when he does get it to the WR and they drop it. Either way, I wasn't thrilled when we selected him. I wanted one of the CB/S available at the time. I gave him a try, but a lot of you are correct. We have sailed the develop him into something boat and it promptly sunk in the harbor. Unless he does a complete 180 in the next 8 games, I say we move on. Sign a vet, keep Kessler and draft the best QB in the draft. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

Absolutely.  I also wanted a DB with the pick.  I also don’t want a qb that has to have WRs constantly pulling his wildly innacurate rear out of the fire.  I want a qb that makes all of the throws with accuracy, anticipates, and makes quick reads and progressions.  That is not Kizer.  A good qb makes everyone else better, not everyone else masks his horrible play.

[dawgattack]

20 hours ago, DizzyDean said:

at 21, a person's cognitive processing speeds should be at their absolute peak.  He is not going to learn to process any faster.  Of course he can learn new things, lots of them, but the rate at which he processes will not significantly improve.  So......

Come on now....sports aren't that simple. Experience helps the slow the game down for almost all athletes in a contact sport. At 21, Kizer was the 3rd youngest QB to ever start a season for an NFL team. He's just a baby by pro Football QB standards. Goff was a #1 pick and look how overwhelmed he was in his rookie year. Due to a variety of factors, Kizer may not end up being the man for the Browns but I have a feeling he's going to carve out an impressive career somewhere.

[buno67]

4 hours ago, DizzyDean said:

Absolutely.  I also wanted a DB with the pick.  I also don’t want a qb that has to have WRs constantly pulling his wildly innacurate rear out of the fire.  I want a qb that makes all of the throws with accuracy, anticipates, and makes quick reads and progressions.  That is not Kizer.  A good qb makes everyone else better, not everyone else masks his horrible play.

Manning (Peyton and Eli) didnt make everyone else better their first year and you could say the same for Stafford, Goff, and etc. There have been plenty of rookie QBs who have struggled and than improved. Last year Goff struggles with accuracy, anticipation, reads and progressions. Now after a year he is better at it. More experience, getting comfortable and being properly adjusted to the speed makes a huge difference.

[buno67]

if it was all about the cognitive processing speeds than the wonderlic should be the bar for QB success than because that test is basically all about cognitive processing speeds.

Also you dont need to have this so called elite amazing cognitive processing speeds when a QB becomes smart enough that they know opposing defenses inside and out. They understand coverages, and they are able to make pre snap reads properly. When they are experienced enough and can start making the game easier and simplified, which makes the game slow down, they can process things more efficiently...they are working smarter, not harder. 

 

[DizzyDean]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

Manning (Peyton and Eli) didnt make everyone else better their first year and you could say the same for Stafford, Goff, and etc. There have been plenty of rookie QBs who have struggled and than improved. Last year Goff struggles with accuracy, anticipation, reads and progressions. Now after a year he is better at it. More experience, getting comfortable and being properly adjusted to the speed makes a huge difference.

Those gentlemen that you mention did not regress through their college years, and then continue a sped up regression once they reached the NFL.  They adjusted in a good way.

[DizzyDean]

50 minutes ago, buno67 said:

if it was all about the cognitive processing speeds than the wonderlic should be the bar for QB success than because that test is basically all about cognitive processing speeds.

Also you dont need to have this so called elite amazing cognitive processing speeds when a QB becomes smart enough that they know opposing defenses inside and out. They understand coverages, and they are able to make pre snap reads properly. When they are experienced enough and can start making the game easier and simplified, which makes the game slow down, they can process things more efficiently...they are working smarter, not harder. 

 

Cognitive processing is important, no matter how you look at it.  Yes, recognition is important, but a QB had mere seconds to see the defense, diagnose, and adjust pre snap to what they are seeing.  That is cognitive speed, how fast those synapses fire.  Kizer appears to process extremely slow and looks plain lost.  Now if he had 4 to 5 minutes pre snap to process, that may help him.  However, he does not.

[buno67]

1 hour ago, DizzyDean said:

Those gentlemen that you mention did not regress through their college years, and then continue a sped up regression once they reached the NFL.  They adjusted in a good way.

Those guys in college didnt have a sh!tshow of chaos going around them either. There is a reason Kelly changed up some many assistant coaches from last year to this year and pretty much remade his offensive staff. 

 

58 minutes ago, DizzyDean said:

Cognitive processing is important, no matter how you look at it.  Yes, recognition is important, but a QB had mere seconds to see the defense, diagnose, and adjust pre snap to what they are seeing.  That is cognitive speed, how fast those synapses fire.  Kizer appears to process extremely slow and looks plain lost.  Now if he had 4 to 5 minutes pre snap to process, that may help him.  However, he does not.

You know what makes it go quicker, experience...you talk about recognition to see the defense, diagnose, and adjust presnap. When you know and understand NFL defenses, you know and understand all the different kinds of NFL coverages, you know and understand the offensive playbook, you are not working about figuring something out, it just happens. The more you know something, the quicker the mental recall can and will be, and you then can spend less time thinking because it will become second nature. Its like with multiplication facts. Yeah it took use forever to remember the 7s,8s, and 9s. You learned little tricks to help remember. The more practice and more exposure you have to them, the quicker and better you became. 

Yes, QBs have mere seconds, so if they have more advance base of prior knowledge, the more prepared they will be when it comes to breaking the huddle. The more experience a QB the more efficient they can and will be and easier it can be. I dont care what your cognitive speed is. The simpler something is, the easier it will be. Whats easier doing, 1234 x 5678 or 9 x 4? the latter because its simpler. You can simply things by knowing and understanding all the concepts that are in involved.  

Whats your reasoning with Alex Smith? Dude was awful his first 5 years. Hell his rookie year he had a worse completion% than kizer, worse TD%, worse INT%, worse QB rating and etc.  

[Kiwibrown]

I agree with @buno67 

Tom Brady has th best reactions in the business not because has the fastest reaction time but because of confidence, experience and preparation. 

The int when Kizer threw it to higgins deep middle right was late and high but the correct read. 

He didn't anticipate Higgin opening and then a technical flaw of over stepping caused the ball to sail. 

all correctable problems on the correct read. 

 

[buno67]

9 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

I agree with @buno67 

Tom Brady has th best reactions in the business not because has the fastest reaction time but because of confidence, experience and preparation. 

The int when Kizer threw it to higgins deep middle right was late and high but the correct read. 

He didn't anticipate Higgin opening and then a technical flaw of over stepping caused the ball to sail. 

all correctable problems on the correct read. 

 

The worse thing about Hue right now, he hasn’t tried slowing the game down for Kizer. You saw BOB do that for Watson by adding a lot of concepts he was great at in college to the playbook. It was easier for Watson to understand and gave him confidence.

hell last week it was the first time that it looked like the offensive scheme was made easier and simplier for Kizer and he looked better because of it. It’s like Hue made Kizer sprint in the NFL before he was able to even walk. 

[Aztec Hammer]

2 hours ago, buno67 said:

The worse thing about Hue right now, he hasn’t tried slowing the game down for Kizer. You saw BOB do that for Watson by adding a lot of concepts he was great at in college to the playbook. It was easier for Watson to understand and gave him confidence.

hell last week it was the first time that it looked like the offensive scheme was made easier and simplier for Kizer and he looked better because of it. It’s like Hue made Kizer sprint in the NFL before he was able to even walk. 

What concepts was Kizer great at in college that could be applied to the playbook in the NFL?

[Bonanza23]

16 hours ago, buno67 said:

Manning (Peyton and Eli) didnt make everyone else better their first year and you could say the same for Stafford, Goff, and etc. There have been plenty of rookie QBs who have struggled and than improved. Last year Goff struggles with accuracy, anticipation, reads and progressions. Now after a year he is better at it. More experience, getting comfortable and being properly adjusted to the speed makes a huge difference.

Goff is actually a bad example. He had borderline elite accuracy and anticipation in college. Reads and progressions were really good. It’s why I was really confident he’d be good in the nfl. Last year we didn’t see those things because he literally had one of the worst olines I’ve seen in my entire life. Unfortunately I see the same things in Kizer as well that I saw in college. Erratic accuracy and bird dogging his 1st read.

As far as the op question I still don’t think we know what Kizer will be yet. But I have an inclination. IF there is a stud at the top of the draft we need to do what we need to do to get him. IF there is one. 

[Kiwibrown]

5 hours ago, buno67 said:

The worse thing about Hue right now, he hasn’t tried slowing the game down for Kizer. You saw BOB do that for Watson by adding a lot of concepts he was great at in college to the playbook. It was easier for Watson to understand and gave him confidence.

hell last week it was the first time that it looked like the offensive scheme was made easier and simplier for Kizer and he looked better because of it. It’s like Hue made Kizer sprint in the NFL before he was able to even walk. 

Yes.

Some simplified reads would of been good, and some sprints passing options. 

[buno67]

3 hours ago, Aztec Hammer said:

What concepts was Kizer great at in college that could be applied to the playbook in the NFL?

I have no idea but he wasn’t running a chuck It and F’ it scheme Hue had him running early in the season. 

I don’t know why our offensive and defensive schemes changed so much From preseason to the regular season. 

Some people make it out that Kizer was an awful QB in college but just had all these amazing physical tools. Yeah his last year in ND was good but that team and coaching staff was complete garbage

[Aztec Hammer]

41 minutes ago, buno67 said:

I have no idea but he wasn’t running a chuck It and F’ it scheme Hue had him running early in the season. 

I don’t know why our offensive and defensive schemes changed so much From preseason to the regular season. 

Some people make it out that Kizer was an awful QB in college but just had all these amazing physical tools. Yeah his last year in ND was good but that team and coaching staff was complete garbage

I don't think Kizer was an awful college QB.  I think he just wasn't particularly good. Also don't think he has any amazing physical tools.

I have no problem with him staying on the roster as the third QB and quietly trying to progress and develop.

[DizzyDean]

21 hours ago, buno67 said:

Those guys in college didnt have a sh!tshow of chaos going around them either. There is a reason Kelly changed up some many assistant coaches from last year to this year and pretty much remade his offensive staff. 

 

You know what makes it go quicker, experience...you talk about recognition to see the defense, diagnose, and adjust presnap. When you know and understand NFL defenses, you know and understand all the different kinds of NFL coverages, you know and understand the offensive playbook, you are not working about figuring something out, it just happens. The more you know something, the quicker the mental recall can and will be, and you then can spend less time thinking because it will become second nature. Its like with multiplication facts. Yeah it took use forever to remember the 7s,8s, and 9s. You learned little tricks to help remember. The more practice and more exposure you have to them, the quicker and better you became. 

Yes, QBs have mere seconds, so if they have more advance base of prior knowledge, the more prepared they will be when it comes to breaking the huddle. The more experience a QB the more efficient they can and will be and easier it can be. I dont care what your cognitive speed is. The simpler something is, the easier it will be. Whats easier doing, 1234 x 5678 or 9 x 4? the latter because its simpler. You can simply things by knowing and understanding all the concepts that are in involved.  

Whats your reasoning with Alex Smith? Dude was awful his first 5 years. Hell his rookie year he had a worse completion% than kizer, worse TD%, worse INT%, worse QB rating and etc.  

Several factors, one was a constantly changing coaching staff year after year, another a weak supporting cast.  Awful as he was, he still showed signs of life and was not noticeably regressing.  Kizer shows no signs and is regressing at an alarming rate in the same exact ways that he was in college.