The Marvel Cinematic Universe- Silver Surfer cast

[Deadpulse]

6 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Are moderators all not the same person?

But seriously, the outrage tends to dramatically oversimplify what it means to be any minority, but then also ignores that same ridiculous oversimplification of the nerd. It's the other side of the same coin, but only 1 of those is offensive.

Shhhhhh dont tell the global mods that!

 

[Calvert28]

2 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

Im really not sure what you are arguing here. You are picking out one very specific and small piece of what women face every day. If you truly think being objectified sexually is the big ticket item, you really are proving my point of understanding vs. first hand perspective. 

That it's not unique or exclusive to one gender so it's not like no man has ever gone through that before. So to say we can't emphasize is far fetched to say the least.

[Deadpulse]

2 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

That it's not unique or exclusive to one gender so it's not like no man has ever gone through that before. So to say we can't emphasize is far fetched to say the least.

Again, being able to empathize with the idea of being sexually objectified is .01% of gender inequality and misogyny. If you honestly believe that is all women go through as women in today's society you not only cant see their perspective, but you dont even logically understand the issues, because they are numerous. 

[Calvert28]

23 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

Again, being able to empathize with the idea of being sexually objectified is .01% of gender inequality and misogyny. If you honestly believe that is all women go through as women in today's society you not only cant see their perspective, but you dont even logically understand the issues, because they are numerous. 

As if women don't do the same thing? Again I don't think you get that they are sexual creatures to that objectify just like men it happens everyday. No it doesn't "just" happen to them.

[Deadpulse]

21 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

As if women don't do the same thing? Again I don't think you get that they are sexual creatures to that objectify just like men it happens everyday. No it doesn't "just" happen to them.

How do you not get that I am not refuting that? The point is that is a SMALL part and just one of MANY things women deal with. To say that you might have perspective on living life as a woman in this country because youve had unwanted sexual advances is incredibly naive and shows a insane lack of understanding of what the issues actually are. 

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, Deadpulse said:

How do you not get that I am not refuting that? The point is that is a SMALL part and just one of MANY things women deal with. To say that you might have perspective on living life as a woman in this country because youve had unwanted sexual advances is incredibly naive and shows a insane lack of understanding of what the issues actually are. 

Not really. Much of what men do to women, they do that and sometimes more to eachother with the frat mentality of establishing the hierarchy. Again to the part in bold this is not the Handmaiden's Tale.

[AlexGreen#20]

12 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Where's the outrage over all of the other pandering in superhero movies? I mean dear god, the whole Spiderman origin is that a high school loser wakes up one day with superhero powers, get the hottest chick in school, and embarrasses the guy who bullied him.

Somehow the only pandering that isn't okay is when the audience getting pandered to isn't straight, white, nerdy, and male.

I've got several issues with that take: 

1. Absolutely no one was asking for another Spider-Man origin story at the time of Homecoming's release. Everybody was sick to death of that story and most of the tropes you've identified.

2. If that's the issue you have with movies, welcome to life. That's the modern day version of the hero's journey story. It starts with either a lost but powerful soul, or a determined but weak individual. 

3. For as tropetastic as Spider-Man is (welcome to every comic book written before 1970, in the period of it's origins Peter Parker is like the least eye rolling), the best books and movies show the journey to him becoming competent, not just in using his powers but also in understanding when to use his powers. 

4. While you make a good point, there's a difference between taking somewhat outdated source material, and trying to modernize it (Did Peter ever beat up a bully, or get the hottest girl in school in Homecoming? Emma Stone was almost more over drawn than Spider-Man in the Andrew Garfield version). There's at least a somewhat believable course of action. And usually him acting out selfishly comes back to bite him in the ***. I know this is two entirely different companies, but you look at what DC is doing with their television shows (I'm hoping people are more familiar with those than the Marvel comics but it's the same mindset) and it's absolutely cringeinducing. Did you see that new Batwoman trailer? My God.

[ramssuperbowl99]

38 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

13 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Where's the outrage over all of the other pandering in superhero movies? I mean dear god, the whole Spiderman origin is that a high school loser wakes up one day with superhero powers, get the hottest chick in school, and embarrasses the guy who bullied him.

Somehow the only pandering that isn't okay is when the audience getting pandered to isn't straight, white, nerdy, and male.

I've got several issues with that take: 

1. Absolutely no one was asking for another Spider-Man origin story at the time of Homecoming's release. Everybody was sick to death of that story and most of the tropes you've identified.

2. If that's the issue you have with movies, welcome to life. That's the modern day version of the hero's journey story. It starts with either a lost but powerful soul, or a determined but weak individual. 

3. For as tropetastic as Spider-Man is (welcome to every comic book written before 1970, in the period of it's origins Peter Parker is like the least eye rolling), the best books and movies show the journey to him becoming competent, not just in using his powers but also in understanding when to use his powers. 

4. While you make a good point, there's a difference between taking somewhat outdated source material, and trying to modernize it (Did Peter ever beat up a bully, or get the hottest girl in school in Homecoming? Emma Stone was almost more over drawn than Spider-Man in the Andrew Garfield version). There's at least a somewhat believable course of action. And usually him acting out selfishly comes back to bite him in the ***. I know this is two entirely different companies, but you look at what DC is doing with their television shows (I'm hoping people are more familiar with those than the Marvel comics but it's the same mindset) and it's absolutely cringeinducing. Did you see that new Batwoman trailer? My God.

You're trying to explain away really naked hypocrisy and it's not working. It's not just Spiderman, either. 

Almost every Superman movie has that scene that doesn't fit in the movie at all with an awkward, teenage angsty Clark Kent who argues with his dad about why he can't play football where his dad tells him that Clark is too strong and it wouldn't be fair. Or that ridiculous scene in the new one where there's a bus crash full of HS kids and he miraculously pulls the bus out of a river or something, and somehow the only person who notices is the hottest chick in the class. No cops, just some weird conversation with the principal where the hot chick makes googly eyes at him the whole time. That's every comic book nerd's fantasy - walking on the football field for a tryout and hucking it a country mile or playing the hero and having no consequences other than the hottest girl in class crushing on you. Hell, Iron Man's arc is a genius tech geek who made a magic suit that lets him fly. And yeah he got a PhD at like 15, but they gloss over that part in the movies because it's not relateable to all the B or C students that were buying those comics. Captain America walks in a 100 pound string being and walks out a shredded 6'4", 220 with an 8 pack because of magic serum.

The entire history of comics has been selling ridiculous fantasies to young, nerdy, white, straight men.

Now, they're selling those same fantasies to women, or minorities, or gay people. It's not any better or worse, it's just not only about you or me any more. There's nothing inherently bad about giving a kid an idol who they can relate to or letting them have a superhero fantasy.

If you're going to be mad at the pandering and argue that it's only about bad writing and lazy tropes, you have to be mad at all of it, regardless of the audience. And the plan and simple fact is that the internet was perfectly okay with pandering until the demographic broadened.

Edited May 29, 2019 by ramssuperbowl99

[Deadpulse]

The thing with long-term comic fans is they expect every book Marvel and DC puts out to be for them. I have heard so many middle aged men at the comic store complain because they are not interested in the direction of so and so character. Thats not the problem. The problem is their reaction to that, that they are failing and not giving fans what they want as if what THEY want is the end all be all.

 

While they are being selfish with that mindset, they are also the overwhelming main demographic in comics. Therefore, their buys have a massive effect on what gets made and what gets cancelled. 

[AlexGreen#20]

46 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

You're trying to explain away really naked hypocrisy and it's not working. It's not just Spiderman, either. 

Almost every Superman movie has that scene that doesn't fit in the movie at all with an awkward, teenage angsty Clark Kent who argues with his dad about why he can't play football where his dad tells him that Clark is too strong and it wouldn't be fair. Or that ridiculous scene in the new one where there's a bus crash full of HS kids and he miraculously pulls the bus out of a river or something, and somehow the only person who notices is the hottest chick in the class. No cops, just some weird conversation with the principal where the hot chick makes googly eyes at him the whole time. That's every comic book nerd's fantasy - walking on the football field for a tryout and hucking it a country mile or playing the hero and having no consequences other than the hottest girl in class crushing on you. Hell, Iron Man's arc is a genius tech geek who made a magic suit that lets him fly. And yeah he got a PhD at like 15, but they gloss over that part in the movies because it's not relateable to all the B or C students that were buying those comics. Captain America walks in a 100 pound string being and walks out a shredded 6'4", 220 with an 8 pack because of magic serum.

The entire history of comics has been selling ridiculous fantasies to young, nerdy, white, straight men.

Now, they're selling those same fantasies to women, or minorities, or gay people. It's not any better or worse, it's just not only about you or me any more. There's nothing inherently bad about giving a kid an idol who they can relate to or letting them have a superhero fantasy.

If you're going to be mad at the pandering and argue that it's only about bad writing and lazy tropes, you have to be mad at all of it, regardless of the audience. And the plan and simple fact is that the internet was perfectly okay with pandering until the demographic broadened.

And every Superman movie (and 99 percent of the comics) ever made has sucked because he's a horrible contrivance with no real weaknesses.

Ironman's role as an individual superhero in comics is lousy except as an overarching commander of forces, creator of technology, or mentor to better heros. 

Captain America's origins aren't even as benevolent as pandering. His origins are straight up military propaganda. 

All those heros emerged from a much older time. The origins of the characters aren't the stories currently being told that make them good comics.

Complex narratives with political allegory aspects like the X-men, Civil War, and Daredevil (and even Captain America regardless of how gag-worthy some of his #im14andthisisdeep conclusions are) are what's driving the best comic books currently being published.

The audience has evolved with the genre. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by AlexGreen#20

[ramssuperbowl99]

41 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

And every Superman movie (and 99 percent of the comics) ever made has sucked because he's a horrible contrivance with no real weaknesses.

Ironman's role as an individual superhero in comics is lousy except as an overarching commander of forces, creator of technology, or mentor to better heros. 

Captain America's origins aren't even as benevolent as pandering. His origins are straight up military propaganda. 

All those heros emerged from a much older time. The origins of the characters aren't the stories currently being told that make them good comics.

Complex narratives with political allegory aspects like the X-men, Civil War, and Daredevil (and even Captain America regardless of how gag-worthy some of his #im14andthisisdeep conclusions are) are what's driving the best comic books currently being published.

The audience has evolved with the genre. 

The point isn't what is objectively good and bad. Spoiler alert: super hero movies are bad. 

The point is that people vary their outrage depending on whether the audience being pandered to is a minority or not. Pandering to the majority is acceptable on the internet and done all the time. But pander to a minority and all the sudden everyone on the internet is saying they can't get into it because it's cheesy, when the reality is that they can't get into it because they aren't the target demographic for the first time in their lives.

Edited May 29, 2019 by ramssuperbowl99

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The point isn't what is objectively good and bad. Spoiler alert: super hero movies are bad. 

The point is that people vary their outrage depending on whether the audience being pandered to is a minority or not. Pandering to the majority is acceptable on the internet and done all the time. Pandering to a minority and all the sudden everyone on the internet is saying they can't get into it because it's cheesy, when the reality is that they can't get into it because they aren't the target demographic for the first time in their lives.

And that first line is the difference between people who like super hero movies and comics, and people who think they're too good for them. 

Rather than even entertain the notion that a movie with a protected class character is a lousy flick or book, you go right to the persecuted card. It's instinctively ingrained in you now.

And the funniest part about it is that you're not even white-knighting for anything worth a damn. You're putting yourself up on a pedestal so you can feel good about stanning for one of the biggest corporations in the world continuing to cash huge checks. Disney doesn't give a single iota of care about minorities.

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

And that first line is the difference between people who like super hero movies and comics, and people who think they're too good for them. 

Rather than even entertain the notion that a movie with a protected class character is a lousy flick or book, you go right to the persecuted card. It's instinctively ingrained in you now.

And the funniest part about it is that you're not even white-knighting for anything worth a damn. You're putting yourself up on a pedestal so you can feel good about stanning for one of the biggest corporations in the world continuing to cash huge checks. Disney doesn't give a single iota of care about minorities.

Please point out where I defended anything Disney did, or where I said that Captain Marvel or Black Panther are good movies. That's you putting words in my mouth. I saw Black Panther, my honest take was that it was a boiler plate cheesy super hero flick with a really good soundtrack. I also haven't defended Disney once. 

All I've done in this thread is call people who are entirely okay with being pandered to directly but can't stand that Disney would pander to someone else selfish hypocrites who can't stand that everything isn't about them. Given that you've deflected that point on a few posts and have now resorted to the white knighting insults, apparently that's hitting a little too close to home.

[AlexGreen#20]

6 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Please point out where I defended anything Disney did, or where I said that Captain Marvel or Black Panther are good movies. That's you putting words in my mouth. I saw Black Panther, my honest take was that it was a boiler plate cheesy super hero flick with a really good soundtrack. I also haven't defended Disney once. 

All I've done in this thread is call people who are entirely okay with being pandered to directly but can't stand that Disney would pander to someone else selfish hypocrites who can't stand that everything isn't about them. Given that you've deflected that point on a few posts and have now resorted to the white knighting insults, apparently that's hitting a little too close to home.

So because you're so much smarter than everybody else on the internet, when you say a movie is mediocre (or gasp, Black Panther is overrated) , that's your independent intelligent opinion, but when other people on the internet say the same thing it's because they can't accept not being pandered to. That's a very very strange double standard, and requires a seriously over inflated ego. 

Also, darn, you and LBC have this same playbook down. You call every one else selfish hypocrites and bigots, because they disagree with you, and then perceive their irritation at being accused as a sign that they're guilty of your accusations. 

Both you and he have now said you did not enjoy a marvel property, in his case the Thor comic books, and in your case Black Panther, repeating basically the same criticisms of the entire community, but somehow you're better than them in some way.

Has it occurred to you that you're not special and the majority of people who read these books and watch these movies are as capable of parsing nuance as you yourself are? Probably not, that would interfere with your ability to stereotype and demonize people you perceive yourself to be better than. Typical elitist.

[Fl0nkerton]

Oof. Lotta fragile fellas in here big mad about people messing with their super heroes 😂😭