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The Marvel Cinematic Universe- X-Men 97 trailer (March 20)


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20 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Nevermind

Still nobody wants to answer my question about why White Dudes have to show up and applaud a movie that isn't made for them.

Disney Employee: This movies isn't made for White Dudes.

White Dudes: Downvote movie

Disney: pikachu_sorprendido.jpg

Not to actually get involved in this discussion, but isn't this entire sequence you outlined with "white males" down voting/deriding/marginalizing a movie they have never seen simply because they take offense with something completely unrelated to the actual merits of the film exactly what Brie Larson was referencing in regards to her original statement that set so many people off?

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2 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Captain Marvel

A Wrinkle in Time.

But the argument was, if it's only made for one particular group of people then she doesn't care if other people don't watch it. Which is how it made its way to CM, which I can't fault.

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The Mockingbird cover was a response to the book getting cancelled because there was a hailstorm of sexist and misogynistic backlash laid against.

You pointing out three thing in comics and saying, what? That comics do this thing? Because my god, comics, in their history, do every damn thing. They pander, they race bait, they normalize a distorted view on society, they promote stereotypes, etc etc etc. Is your entire point that comics do bad things? Every medium does bad things, comics are not immune. 

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1 minute ago, Calvert28 said:

A Wrinkle in Time.

But the argument was, if it's only made for one particular group of people then she doesn't care if other people don't watch it. Which is how it made its way to CM, which I can't fault.

I'll reiterate, I dont think Brie is right either. Also good on you for not being a headline reader @Calvert28. The consumer gets to decide if it was made for them or not. Now the target demo might not line up with the individual, but that doesnt really matter. I love the Boondocks cartoon. Im a white dude in NH. Am I the target demo? No. However I still enjoy it and thats great. I am also not going to sit around and say its not an accurate satire of a culture I am not apart of because i dont have the perspective to do that. The "Who it was made for" is a strawman argument IMO, in BOTH directions. 

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1 minute ago, Deadpulse said:

The Mockingbird cover was a response to the book getting cancelled because there was a hailstorm of sexist and misogynistic backlash laid against.

You pointing out three thing in comics and saying, what? That comics do this thing? Because my god, comics, in their history, do every damn thing. They pander, they race bait, they normalize a distorted view on society, they promote stereotypes, etc etc etc. Is your entire point that comics do bad things? Every medium does bad things, comics are not immune. 

You know you've truly lost the argument when you get to, "Well yes it's bad, but everybody's doing it".

And the comic wasn't cancelled because of any backlash. It wasn't selling because literally no one cared about a role character from a strongly maligned television show. The only reason anybody cared about it at all is she decided to put herself on the cover and make a production about it. And the worst parts of the internet reacted accordingly.

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1 minute ago, Deadpulse said:

I'll reiterate, I dont think Brie is right either. Also good on you for not being a headline reader @Calvert28. The consumer gets to decide if it was made for them or not. Now the target demo might not line up with the individual, but that doesnt really matter. I love the Boondocks cartoon. Im a white dude in NH. Am I the target demo? No. However I still enjoy it and thats great. I am also not going to sit around and say its not an accurate satire of a culture I am not apart of because i dont have the perspective to do that. The "Who it was made for" is a strawman argument IMO, in BOTH directions. 

I love Boondocks as well, but kinda fell off after the 2nd year for me. But as a actor, director, etc normally the main goal of the art is to provoke thought from audiences of all backgrounds. I love Friday even though the movie wasn't made to pander to me, and why should it? But Icecube didn't come out and say he didn't make this movie for white people, NWA didn't come out and say they only made their music for the minorities. Why? They were just expressing their views and people of all backgrounds loved the music and the satire. They became popular without alienating while stating this is who they are and where they came from without stating "but this is ours and only ours".

So it's not a certain group looking to get offended just because. It's because someone like Larson is a complete tool who actually thinks she's a SuperHero if you've ever listened to this crazy woman talk in a interview. Theres even alot of speculation and rumors that the cast from Avengers don't like her because she's pompous.

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5 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You guys who love these trash movies really love calling people mad. First response almost every time. LBC, Rams, and now you. Everybody who disagrees with you is mad. All while you seethe in self-perceived moral superiority over the unclean proletariat internet masses. It's actually funny.

I mean, I'd be mad if Chris Hemsworth said he didn't care about what white dudes had to say too.

I'd be mad if Anthony Mackie said he didn't care about what Arabs had to say.

That's the beauty of not playing in the privellage Olympics, I can just call trash people what they are without having to compute any privellage points mathematics. And Brie Larson is a trash person.

You didn't answer my question though, Marvel made a movie that supposedly isn't meant for white dudes. Why the hell are white dudes expected to show up and cheer for it? Unless they perceive themselves as somehow superior to "those white dudes" which takes a significant level of mental gymnastics and a superiority complex.

So are you mad or not? The bolded is a bit contradictory.

And if Brie is a trash person for speaking up and standing for something that she believes in, then I'm not sure what to tell you boss. I guess stay inside and keep making those Pepe memes on 4chan and maybe it will all work out for you. Really hope that it does.

 

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5 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You guys who love these trash movies really love calling people mad. First response almost every time. LBC, Rams, and now you. Everybody who disagrees with you is mad. All while you seethe in self-perceived moral superiority over the unclean proletariat internet masses. It's actually funny.

I mean, I'd be mad if Chris Hemsworth said he didn't care about what white dudes had to say too.

I'd be mad if Anthony Mackie said he didn't care about what Arabs had to say.

That's the beauty of not playing in the privellage Olympics, I can just call trash people what they are without having to compute any privellage points mathematics. And Brie Larson is a trash person.

You didn't answer my question though, Marvel made a movie that supposedly isn't meant for white dudes. Why the hell are white dudes expected to show up and cheer for it? Unless they perceive themselves as somehow superior to "those white dudes" which takes a significant level of mental gymnastics and a superiority complex.

The tone of your posts is clearly mad.  Maybe not outraged anger in the traditional sense, but in the "Oh, he mad" sense, abso-fricking-lutely.  If that's not your intention then it's on you to change that.

Your posts also reek of hypocrisy, which I'm sure you'll now react like someone just poured scalding water on you because you've made it very clear you're the type that is perfectly willing to sling mud at other people but can't take it himself.  You could answer a lot of your own questions, but I'm actually of the opinion you don't want to because then you wouldn't be able to lord this faux moral superiority (the kind you purport to hate coming from other people) with a shred of credibility.

If a movie's target audience isn't white dudes, no one with any cachet in the production process expects white dudes to show up.  Will white dudes probably still show up?  Yeah.  I see white people going to see Tyler Perry movies.  I saw plenty of non-gay people go see Love, Simon, I was one of them.

Meanwhile, you continue to have this obsession with putting words in other peoples' mouths while simultaneously decrying other people for calling you mad.  Like I said, hypocrite. 

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34 minutes ago, Fl0nkerton said:

So are you mad or not? The bolded is a bit contradictory.

And if Brie is a trash person for speaking up and standing for something that she believes in, then I'm not sure what to tell you boss. I guess stay inside and keep making those Pepe memes on 4chan and maybe it will all work out for you. Really hope that it does.

 

Fair enough, poor word choice on my part. Disapproving would be a better choice of words.

Hitler spoke up and stood for what he believed in, in his case ethnic cleansing. I somehow doubt you would qualify him as something better than a trash person. Be careful where you set that bar there. Standing up for a belief doesn't make you a good person if the belief is trash. 

But you can think on that while you're dying your hair fun colors to match your green barista apron and protesting non vegan restaurants. Stereotypes are fun.

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15 minutes ago, The LBC said:

The tone of your posts is clearly mad.  Maybe not outraged anger in the traditional sense, but in the "Oh, he mad" sense, abso-fricking-lutely.  If that's not your intention then it's on you to change that.

Your posts also reek of hypocrisy, which I'm sure you'll now react like someone just poured scalding water on you because you've made it very clear you're the type that is perfectly willing to sling mud at other people but can't take it himself.  You could answer a lot of your own questions, but I'm actually of the opinion you don't want to because then you wouldn't be able to lord this faux moral superiority (the kind you purport to hate coming from other people) with a shred of credibility.

If a movie's target audience isn't white dudes, no one with any cachet in the production process expects white dudes to show up.  Will white dudes probably still show up?  Yeah.  I see white people going to see Tyler Perry movies.  I saw plenty of non-gay people go see Love, Simon, I was one of them.

Meanwhile, you continue to have this obsession with putting words in other peoples' mouths while simultaneously decrying other people for calling you mad.  Like I said, hypocrite. 

Ironically enough the people that seem to be perceiving me as mad are the folks who enter every argument assuming that people who don't like these movies or books are angry trolls. People with an offer inflated sense of their own intelligence who think they're better than other internet commentators.

People like Calvert don't seem to be making that same assumption. You come into the argument with a preconceived notion and attack from there. That's your right, but it doesn't make it a factual statement.

Feel free to outline where my perceived hypocrisy is? I'm seeing a pattern of a lot of accusations and a lot of refusing to acknowledge any points. Nobody wants to have a discussion on the actual books themselves, because you know there's no ground to stand on in that arena.

For all the talk about how I can't seem to take any mid slinging, you started the mud slinging and then accused me of not being able to take it when I gave it back to you. If you're looking for some high level polite discourse, don't start your discussion be accusing them of finding diversity distasteful.

You had that one dialed up immediately. Sorry that it's not 2000 any more and people don't cower when you throw that card at them anymore. Gonna have to come up with a new move.

 

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9 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Ironically enough the people that seem to be perceiving me as mad are the folks who enter every argument assuming that people who don't like these movies or books are angry trolls. People with an offer inflated sense of their own intelligence who think they're better than other internet commentators.

People like Calvert don't seem to be making that same assumption. You come into the argument with a preconceived notion and attack from there. That's your right, but it doesn't make it a factual statement.

Feel free to outline where my perceived hypocrisy is? I'm seeing a pattern of a lot of accusations and a lot of refusing to acknowledge any points. Nobody wants to have a discussion on the actual books themselves, because you know there's no ground to stand on in that arena.

For all the talk about how I can't seem to take any mid slinging, you started the mud slinging and then accused me of not being able to take it when I gave it back to you. If you're looking for some high level polite discourse, don't start your discussion be accusing them of finding diversity distasteful.

You had that one dialed up immediately. Sorry that it's not 2000 any more and people don't cower when you throw that card at them anymore. Gonna have to come up with a new move.

 

You need to please do a better job at reading what's written in posts, rather than jumping immediately to your response.  And again, polarization (you use A LOT of it) doesn't help your argument.  You perceived passive aggressive behavior that wasn't there.  That's on you, bro.  NOBODY is a victim here.

You don't want to see a movie, no one is telling you that you have to see it or even to like it if you see it.  However, if you're going to voice your opinion, best be prepared and open to receiving criticism on your opinion.  I don't agree with the extent to which PC culture has been carried, but I equally think that the people who have championed being the "anti-PC" are just as, if not more, moronic as the people they're decrying because they want to scream "freedom of speech!" while ignoring that freedom to speak doesn't protect from freedom of criticism of your speech.  Yes, freedom of speech and freedom to speak grants anyone the right to be a prick if they so choose, it doesn't grant them protection from being called a prick if and when they're one.

I took issue with your word choice of "pandering," because in order for someone to pander to someone there has to be a demand from the people being pandered to to receive that treatment.  I made the same mistake in word choice when I first started talking on the matter; I actually would have gone back and corrected it had it not already been already quoted by D82, and I make a point to not edit my posts within other people's post - even when I have the ability to do so, because I don't see that as kosher.

Marvel as an entity has been working the multi-verse, multiple timelines stuff for years upon years.  We've got so many different renditions of characters it's damn near ridiculous.  Hell, without there being any physical changes to a characterization, in both Marvel and DC, we've seen some utterly out-of-standard-character portrayals of characters just based on the changing of writers of the comics - some horrific, others not everyone's cup of tea, but not outright bad.  Change for change sake isn't necessarily good, but it isn't inherently bad either.

Inclusion is, by and large, a good thing.  I've conceded (multiple times, you seem to conveniently ignore that, I guess for the sake of your righteous indignation, I honestly don't know, it puzzles me) that the execution of a number of these things, especially in the literature, has been poorly done.  But the level of hyperbole to which you jumped on a lot of this just makes you look like a drama queen.  I never once called you or others "a troll."  I have insinuated and in some cases as-much said that I feel you're being a drama queen about some of this stuff, or complaining just for the sake of complaining.  Your grasping to make most of your arguments so polar only feeds that observation.

You appear to be complaining that the comics, which have always carried a political tinge to them (just in a lot of cases more cleverly hidden because the writers in the golden and silver age were wittier), promote or celebrate viewpoints that you disagree with.  Or that the actors playing characters take positions that you disagree with.  And your response is to call them trash.  You do realize that just because you disagree with something doesn't make it trash, right?  And that having an opinion, much less strongly standing behind one's own personal convictions (whether you personally agree with said convictions or not) doesn't make a person trash, right?  Even bringing Hitler up as an example in this is proof of you jumping to a pole.  And I refuse to believe that you know you couldn't have picked a more appropriate example, but rather chose to use the one you did for some perceived effect.

Also, I gave up on the idea of polite discourse with you a long time ago.  You made it clear in your first response that you had no interest in that.

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People are still crying about Brie Larson saying that people who aren’t a target demo’s opinions don’t hold as much weight as a target demographic’s opinion does?

Wait until you find out the makers of Sesame Street don’t care if you think it isn’t smart enough for you as an adult and that Ryan Reynolds doesn’t care that Deadpool is too violent for a 4 year old. 

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15 minutes ago, The LBC said:

You need to please do a better job at reading what's written in posts, rather than jumping immediately to your response.  And again, polarization (you use A LOT of it) doesn't help your argument.  You perceived passive aggressive behavior that wasn't there.  That's on you, bro.  NOBODY is a victim here.

You don't want to see a movie, no one is telling you that you have to see it or even to like it if you see it.  However, if you're going to voice your opinion, best be prepared and open to receiving criticism on your opinion.  I don't agree with the extent to which PC culture has been carried, but I equally think that the people who have championed being the "anti-PC" are just as, if not more, moronic as the people they're decrying because they want to scream "freedom of speech!" while ignoring that freedom to speak doesn't protect from freedom of criticism of your speech.  Yes, freedom of speech and freedom to speak grants anyone the right to be a prick if they so choose, it doesn't grant them protection from being called a prick if and when they're one.

I took issue with your word choice of "pandering," because in order for someone to pander to someone there has to be a demand from the people being pandered to to receive that treatment.  I made the same mistake in word choice when I first started talking on the matter; I actually would have gone back and corrected it had it not already been already quoted by D82, and I make a point to not edit my posts within other people's post - even when I have the ability to do so, because I don't see that as kosher.

Marvel as an entity has been working the multi-verse, multiple timelines stuff for years upon years.  We've got so many different renditions of characters it's damn near ridiculous.  Hell, without there being any physical changes to a characterization, in both Marvel and DC, we've seen some utterly out-of-standard-character portrayals of characters just based on the changing of writers of the comics - some horrific, others not everyone's cup of tea, but not outright bad.  Change for change sake isn't necessarily good, but it isn't inherently bad either.

Inclusion is, by and large, a good thing.  I've conceded (multiple times, you seem to conveniently ignore that, I guess for the sake of your righteous indignation, I honestly don't know, it puzzles me) that the execution of a number of these things, especially in the literature, has been poorly done.  But the level of hyperbole to which you jumped on a lot of this just makes you look like a drama queen.  I never once called you or others "a troll."  I have insinuated and in some cases as-much said that I feel you're being a drama queen about some of this stuff, or complaining just for the sake of complaining.  Your grasping to make most of your arguments so polar only feeds that observation.

You appear to be complaining that the comics, which have always carried a political tinge to them (just in a lot of cases more cleverly hidden because the writers in the golden and silver age were wittier), promote or celebrate viewpoints that you disagree with.  Or that the actors playing characters take positions that you disagree with.  And your response is to call them trash.  You do realize that just because you disagree with something doesn't make it trash, right?  And that having an opinion, much less strongly standing behind one's own personal convictions (whether you personally agree with said convictions or not) doesn't make a person trash, right?  Even bringing Hitler up as an example in this is proof of you jumping to a pole.  And I refuse to believe that you know you couldn't have picked a more appropriate example, but rather chose to use the one you did for some perceived effect.

Also, I gave up on the idea of polite discourse with you a long time ago.  You made it clear in your first response that you had no interest in that.

I keep being told I need to do a better job of reading and not responding. Where am I doing this? I'm the person in this discussion that's throwing up the least number of strawmen to knock down.

What the heck are you talking about in your "freedom of speech" paragraph? Where on earth is there anywhere in this discussion at any point being made about someone being silenced? The first amendment, aka freedom of speech, protects you from the government. Two morons can bark at each other online for days at a time and there's nothing to do with freedom of speech. That's what we're doing right now. We're having an exchange of ideas. 

Are you going to make an argument that there's no demand from the homosexual community for more gay heros, or no demand from the feminist community for more women superheros, or more demand from the liberal movement in general for more minority super heros? What is your benchmark for making this distinction. I'm reasonably willing to bet I can find a handful of articles from the former Gawker media sites about the lack of interest in super hero movies because there aren't enough gay/women characters in them. Admittedly I could find articles online about how the sun is green, but you understand my dilemna. Who is the voice for these communities that you're claiming aren't making these demands?

Even if we are willing to somehow come to the conclusion that your previous sentence is correct. Marvel attempting to pander because they incorrectly perceive that they can create a demand via their pandering, doesn't make the actions of Disney/Marvel any more honorable or appreciable. That just means they've misread the market.

Marvel has been working on a billion different timelines and storylines, but there's a difference when there's a noticeable movement made and or significant political points made. Marvel portrayed Obama as spiderman's partner. He was never portrayed as a villain. Marvel portrayed Trump as Modok. He was never portrayed as anything other than a villain. This idea that a significant trend of behavior can be explained away just because, "well there's a lot of behavior" doesn't make any sense. It's not even like this is one author. There's a whole bunch of books that have the political messaging in them. And I get that it's impossible to tell a story without some perception of political messaging, but they're rubbing people's faces in it when they have panels like: 

Image result for marvel sjw comics

Thor issue 5 Courtesy of Marvel

and

241.jpg

And

42f.jpg

How can you honestly expect people to not take shots at this company when this is what they do on the regular?

You accused me of finding diversity distasteful. That isn't calling me a troll, that's an accusation of bigotry. That has nothing to do with being a drama queen or whatever you want to spin it as. 

The examples that I posted aren't a "different spin" or anything of the sort. They're straight up political messaging barely being masqueraded as super hero comic books. If you want to come and stand on your head here and make an argument that any of these aren't trash, I'll let you go ahead and make your case. But you're not going to. Because they're trash, and nobody is going to be able to objectively argue otherwise. 

Good lord, you're going to accuse me of failing to read and then pull this nonsense about how "Feeling strongly about an opinion and standing behind it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person". Are you honestly serious with that? Seriously? You know that's not what I meant and you know that's not what I typed, but you feel the need to defend it, so you change the entire crux of the paragraph so you can try and argue it. You didn't just misinterpret the paragraph, you rewrote it.

No duh, standing behind your convictions doesn't make you a bad person. Did you feel a swelling in your heart as you typed out the most obvious line of all time? It also doesn't make you a good person which is what the dude was saying. "Well she feels strongly about her opinion, so you can't say she's a trash person."  It's about the merit of the conviction. Hers is lousy. The idea is to demonstrate that firmly believing in a conviction doesn't make you a good person. The Hitler example demonstrates that just fine. 

You accused me of finding diversity distasteful in your first long response to me. Clearly at no point were you interested in having a civil discussion. 

 

 

 

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