2023 CFB Talk/Draft Prospects

[DreamKid]

21 hours ago, DreamKid said:

He tracks the ball pretty good and his twitch + general ability after the catch is really impressive for a player his size

 

[DreamKid]

 

[diamondbull424]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:10 AM, DreamKid said:

 

Johnston’s hands remind me of Torrey Smith now that I think about it. He’s definitely more fluid than my Metcalf comparison, was definitely a lazy comparison to someone currently in the league.

EDIT: Actually come to think of it, I see similarities to Demaryius Thomas. Hands were a concern for Thomas as a prospect as well and they were never elite, but in his prime they weren’t a huge concern.

Johnston similar to Thomas could also turn a short pass into a homerun with his tackle breaking ability and breakaway speed. And similarly both are deep threats with nice size. I think Thomas is my new comp for Johnston and his potential.

 

On a random note, I wasn’t a fan of last years corner class, but between Gonzalez and Ringo, sign me up. I like the age and potential I see there to be truly elite corners.

If we trade for Mike Evans (I’m not on the Hopkins bandwagon personally), then I’d likely shift CB1 to the top of the board and then go with a WR double dip to close out the draft with Rakim Jarrett and perhaps a Zay Flowers (if he falls due to size concerns).

Edited January 30, 2023 by diamondbull424

[paraven]

 

[Ray Reed]

I told y’all about McDuffie last year! Y’all didn’t wanna listen smh

[RavensfanRD]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:07 AM, DreamKid said:

Flowers probably just kissed a Top 40-50 selection goodbye. 

 

Zay Flowers is him. That is the tweet. He got nothing and I mean NOTHING but dawg in 'em.

[diamondbull424]

19 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

I told y’all about McDuffie last year! Y’all didn’t wanna listen smh

Meh. Nothing against McDuffie, but he pales in comparison to the CB talent this year that could be available in the 20s.

Plus you were talking McDuffie at 14 and there were way better picks to make. Obviously no one expected Kyle Hamilton to fall to 14, but he’s so far better a player at this point that it’s not close. In terms of guys others wanted were talking Jordan Davis, who tested better, the WRs that were thought to be available such as one of London, Wilson, Williams, or Olave… would’ve all made for superior selections as well.

I personally still am not a fan of that type of corner. Doesn’t feel like a Raven. Whereas big corners like Gonzalez, Ringo, Devon Witherspoon, and Joey Porter Jr. all fit the mold of a classic Ravens corner IMO. Ringo can use some dog in the tackling department, but luckily with Smith and Hump in the fold, I doubt soft tackling would be allowed.

[Ray Reed]

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Meh. Nothing against McDuffie, but he pales in comparison to the CB talent this year that could be available in the 20s.

Plus you were talking McDuffie at 14 and there were way better picks to make. Obviously no one expected Kyle Hamilton to fall to 14, but he’s so far better a player at this point that it’s not close. In terms of guys others wanted were talking Jordan Davis, who tested better, the WRs that were thought to be available such as one of London, Wilson, Williams, or Olave… would’ve all made for superior selections as well.

I personally still am not a fan of that type of corner. Doesn’t feel like a Raven. Whereas big corners like Gonzalez, Ringo, Devon Witherspoon, and Joey Porter Jr. all fit the mold of a classic Ravens corner IMO. Ringo can use some dog in the tackling department, but luckily with Smith and Hump in the fold, I doubt soft tackling would be allowed.

Agree to disagree. He showed + coverage ability and physicality at Washington and is showing it at the NFL level now. The "doesn't feel like a Raven" line is a purposefully vague intangible cop out phrase imo after he's proven the PAC12/short arms critiques from in here last offseason wrong. 

Also pretty sure I was advocating a trade back and then McDuffie, but it's possible I said at 14 because I loved him so much.

Doesn't really matter now because he's not on our team and Hamilton is awesome, but I feel good about my initial evaluation and glad he's proving me right so far. Draft evaluation is essentially the purpose of this site so it's nice to have a "hit" (so far) to your name that not many others agreed with. Because we all have plenty that go the other way as well

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ray Reed

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Agree to disagree. He showed + coverage ability and physicality at Washington and is showing it at the NFL level now. The "doesn't feel like a Raven" line is a purposefully vague intangible cop out phrase imo after he's proven the PAC12/short arms critiques from in here last offseason wrong. 

Also pretty sure I was advocating a trade back and then McDuffie, but it's possible I said at 14 because I loved him so much.

Doesn't really matter now because he's not on our team and Hamilton is awesome, but I feel good about my initial evaluation and glad he's proving me right so far. Draft evaluation is essentially the purpose of this site so it's nice to have a "hit" (so far) to your name that not many others agreed with. Because we all have plenty that go the other way as well

So a number of things:

1) If you find the phrase vague, might it make more sense to just ask what it means vs assuming it’s a cop out because it’s not. He doesn’t feel like a Raven to me and that was validated by the fact that the Ravens had an opportunity to take him and did not.

2) McDuffie is arguably not even a top 5 rookie CB, so I’m still confused as to why we feel the need to grave dig him into a non-related thread after an injury influenced rookie season… PFF doesn’t have him as top 5 rookie corner (not that they’re the end all be all) and at best he’s the 3rd best corner with a wide gap from the top 2.

3) McDuffie wasn’t healthy the whole season, which doesn’t really help the general concern about his size being a potential landmine at the next level.

4) Dude still isn't forcing turnovers, one of my chief concerns was that he was always in tight coverage, but it never resulted in splash plays (along with the fact that he didn’t play anybody of note). So if we were going to be taking someone, I hoped they either presented more versatility (like Dax Hill) or were at least going to provide splash plays (like I felt Stingley might provide). Luckily Kyle Hamilton has provided both qualities.

5. Factually speaking the Ravens had a shot to take Trent McDuffie in last years draft and they did not. Thus TMD isn’t a Raven, thus my statement is factual.

6. In terms of “playing like a Raven”, I don’t think TMD plays like a classic Ravens corner. He’s not a big physical press corner type of guy nor is he a ballhawk type of guy, acting as though that’s some sort of hot take is weird.

Webb for example was also small, but he was more physical as a tackler and with taking on blocks (granted he had notable durability concerns too), plus he was a ballhawk (when healthy). But the classic archetype of Ravens corner is still the big press physical guy like McAlister and Smith. McDuffie doesn’t fit the classic archetype nor the ballhawk mode.

7) He’s a very solid cover guy, that’s it. I never said he wasn’t good. I and many others stated that he, like many of the 2022 prospects, had too many problems that made many of them feel like land mines moreso than any previous class.

… and while you may think a less than full season sample size is enough to validate your opinion on McDuffie, I certainly don’t think it’s enough to provide any sort of validation to any rookie corner not named Sauce (who did and does play like a Raven).

8 ) Still not sure why you didn’t just gravedig the 2022 draft prospects thread instead. Because if we’re pimping players that we were high on that other people weren’t also high on then I’m definitely I’m feeling equally if not more validated by what Christian Watson was able to look like over the 2nd half of the season.

9) @coordinator0and @drd23These past few posts could probably be moved to the 2022 thread. If there’s going to be a debate, it probably shouldn’t take away from the 2023 prospects being discussed.

Edited February 1, 2023 by diamondbull424

[DreamKid]

DJ's first Top 50 is out and while that's notable, what I really want to point out is one of the player comps on the prospect profiles which are linked from the list. Lance Zierlein does them and is notorious(To me at least) for 'under comping'(comping the highly ranked prospect to a meh or sub-par NFL player). I think he does it because he feels it makes him look more serious and hardcore as an evaluator, which he wants as a 'TV Scout' with no actual FO experience.

Check out who he comped O'Cyrus Torrence(DJ's 37th ranked player and most scouting sites' top ranked Guard) to- 😂  https://www.nfl.com/prospects/o-cyrus-torrence/3200544f-5269-4111-dab8-fa9ef6354288....  

 

At this stage DJ's ranking is heavily saturated with EDGE and TE talent, which is good and bad for us. We don't have a need at either position but realistically at the most we could expect 3-5 EDGE and maybe 1 TE to get picked up ahead of us at #22.

Our biggest need spots are CB & WR and I'd expect at least 2 WRs and 3 to 4 CBs to get swiped before we pick in the 1st Round. I do see us benefitting when we're finally on the clock in the 3rd Round though as that EDGE & TE depth gets cleaned up in the 60-90 range.

 

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, DreamKid said:

DJ's first Top 50 is out and while that's notable, what I really want to point out is one of the player comps on the prospect profiles which are linked from the list. Lance Zierlein does them and is notorious(To me at least) for 'under comping'(comping the highly ranked prospect to a meh or sub-par NFL player). I think he does it because he feels it makes him look more serious and hardcore as an evaluator, which he wants as a 'TV Scout' with no actual FO experience.

Check out who he comped O'Cyrus Torrence(DJ's 37th ranked player and most scouting sites' top ranked Guard) to- 😂  https://www.nfl.com/prospects/o-cyrus-torrence/3200544f-5269-4111-dab8-fa9ef6354288....  

 

At this stage DJ's ranking is heavily saturated with EDGE and TE talent, which is good and bad for us. We don't have a need at either position but realistically at the most we could expect 3-5 EDGE and maybe 1 TE to get picked up ahead of us at #22.

Our biggest need spots are CB & WR and I'd expect at least 2 WRs and 3 to 4 CBs to get swiped before we pick in the 1st Round. I do see us benefitting when we're finally on the clock in the 3rd Round though as that EDGE & TE depth gets cleaned up in the 60-90 range.

 

I’ll have to look into Deonte Banks. I like his size. A lot of size coming from the corner ranks nowadays.

Also with these rankings, looks like we might get lucky and have our pick of the litter at 22 for WR.

Interesting that he’s got Hyatt as the second ranked WR, I don’t necessarily disagree but it’s interesting nonetheless. 

Johnston’s hands are definitely a concern that will make him interesting if he’s on the board along with many other quality prospects.

[Ray Reed]

12 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

So a number of things:

1) If you find the phrase vague, might it make more sense to just ask what it means vs assuming it’s a cop out because it’s not. He doesn’t feel like a Raven to me and that was validated by the fact that the Ravens had an opportunity to take him and did not.

2) McDuffie is arguably not even a top 5 rookie CB, so I’m still confused as to why we feel the need to grave dig him into a non-related thread after an injury influenced rookie season… PFF doesn’t have him as top 5 rookie corner (not that they’re the end all be all) and at best he’s the 3rd best corner with a wide gap from the top 2.

3) McDuffie wasn’t healthy the whole season, which doesn’t really help the general concern about his size being a potential landmine at the next level.

4) Dude still isn't forcing turnovers, one of my chief concerns was that he was always in tight coverage, but it never resulted in splash plays (along with the fact that he didn’t play anybody of note). So if we were going to be taking someone, I hoped they either presented more versatility (like Dax Hill) or were at least going to provide splash plays (like I felt Stingley might provide). Luckily Kyle Hamilton has provided both qualities.

5. Factually speaking the Ravens had a shot to take Trent McDuffie in last years draft and they did not. Thus TMD isn’t a Raven, thus my statement is factual.

6. In terms of “playing like a Raven”, I don’t think TMD plays like a classic Ravens corner. He’s not a big physical press corner type of guy nor is he a ballhawk type of guy, acting as though that’s some sort of hot take is weird.

Webb for example was also small, but he was more physical as a tackler and with taking on blocks (granted he had notable durability concerns too), plus he was a ballhawk (when healthy). But the classic archetype of Ravens corner is still the big press physical guy like McAlister and Smith. McDuffie doesn’t fit the classic archetype nor the ballhawk mode.

7) He’s a very solid cover guy, that’s it. I never said he wasn’t good. I and many others stated that he, like many of the 2022 prospects, had too many problems that made many of them feel like land mines moreso than any previous class.

… and while you may think a less than full season sample size is enough to validate your opinion on McDuffie, I certainly don’t think it’s enough to provide any sort of validation to any rookie corner not named Sauce (who did and does play like a Raven).

8 ) Still not sure why you didn’t just gravedig the 2022 draft prospects thread instead. Because if we’re pimping players that we were high on that other people weren’t also high on then I’m definitely I’m feeling equally if not more validated by what Christian Watson was able to look like over the 2nd half of the season.

9) @coordinator0and @drd23These past few posts could probably be moved to the 2022 thread. If there’s going to be a debate, it probably shouldn’t take away from the 2023 prospects being discussed.

lol ok man. McDuffie hasn't shown enough of a sample size to prove me right, but Hamilton has shown enough in his sample size to prove that he's the far superior player according to you. Makes sense.

Wasn't even really gravedigging or pimping him on any super serious level. I posted a comment about him from a Chiefs fan with a tongue in cheek (man, I told y'all he would be good!). But you have this weird mental block where you seemingly can't ever acknowledge another person on here was right about something. Ever. There's always a qualifier. If I said the sky is blue you'd type up a thesis like "meh. not really blue. here's why...".

We don't need to post these in another thread because the intent wasn't to restart a debate on him. It was to bring up how I felt good about my initial evaluation of a player on a draft forum.

You seem to not be able to let that sort of thing fly in here. It is what it is. On to the 2023 prospects.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Ray Reed

[diamondbull424]

7 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

lol ok man. McDuffie hasn't shown enough of a sample size to prove me right, but Hamilton has shown enough in his sample size to prove that he's the far superior player according to you. Makes sense.

Wasn't even really gravedigging or pimping him on any super serious level. I posted a comment about him from a Chiefs fan with a tongue in cheek (man, I told y'all he would be good!). But you have this weird mental block where you seemingly can't ever acknowledge another person on here was right about something. Ever. There's always a qualifier. If I said the sky is blue you'd type up a thesis like "meh. not really blue. here's why...".

We don't need to post these in another thread because the intent wasn't to restart a debate on him. It was to bring up how I felt good about my initial evaluation of a player on a draft forum.

You seem to not be able to let that sort of thing fly in here. It is what it is. On to the 2023 prospects.

1. Confused where I said Hamilton was far superior. Not that I disagree. I mean Hamilton as a prospect and pro has shown elite grades.

2. My response was quite tame. I said no disrespect to him as a player. And I didn’t say you were wrong. Simply that the opportunity cost then and in this quick turnaround of hindsight doesn’t really change the calculus much for me. Not sure what you expected to your post. Did you expect validation of being called “right” when McDuffie hasn’t separated himself from other considered options?

3. Yes onto 2023 prospects. As I said earlier, I would take a number of the 2023 corners above McDuffie and even what we saw from Stingley Jr. Sauce is the only one that I would say is above these corner prospects, but even then Christian Gonzalez and Kelee Ringo at their respective ages could be very interesting, they’re athletic profile has the potential to put them right on the same level as Sauce IMO. But as prospects they’re below the level of dominance he showed throughout his collegiate career and then validated against top competition.

I need to look over more from the UMD corner, his profile seems intriguing and he’s a local kid.

[Ray Reed]

30 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. Confused where I said Hamilton was far superior. Not that I disagree. I mean Hamilton as a prospect and pro has shown elite grades.

2. My response was quite tame. I said no disrespect to him as a player. And I didn’t say you were wrong. Simply that the opportunity cost then and in this quick turnaround of hindsight doesn’t really change the calculus much for me. Not sure what you expected to your post. Did you expect validation of being called “right” when McDuffie hasn’t separated himself from other considered options?

3. Yes onto 2023 prospects. As I said earlier, I would take a number of the 2023 corners above McDuffie and even what we saw from Stingley Jr. Sauce is the only one that I would say is above these corner prospects, but even then Christian Gonzalez and Kelee Ringo at their respective ages could be very interesting, they’re athletic profile has the potential to put them right on the same level as Sauce IMO. But as prospects they’re below the level of dominance he showed throughout his collegiate career and then validated against top competition.

I need to look over more from the UMD corner, his profile seems intriguing and he’s a local kid.

Quote

Obviously no one expected Kyle Hamilton to fall to 14, but he’s so far better a player at this point that it’s not close.

But yeah, onto 2023.

Gotta be honest - as someone who's watched every game of Deonte Banks' career, I'm pretty surprised he's in the conversation as a first round type player. He certainly has the athletic profile, but he was - in my honest opinion - consistently the Terps' 3rd best corner every year of his career (behind Tarheeb Still and Jakorian Bennett). And when Nick Cross was here at S, he was objectively the 4th best player in the secondary on a team that hasn't been very good.

I would love to see him go in the 1st as a Maryland fan though, 100%.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

But yeah, onto 2023.

Gotta be honest - as someone who's watched every game of Deonte Banks' career, I'm pretty surprised he's in the conversation as a first round type player. He certainly has the athletic profile, but he was - in my honest opinion - consistently the Terps' 3rd best corner every year of his career (behind Tarheeb Still and Jakorian Bennett). And when Nick Cross was here at S, he was objectively the 4th best player in the secondary on a team that hasn't been very good.

I would love to see him go in the 1st as a Maryland fan though, 100%.

This is good insight. I’ve just heard buzz around his name. I just see 6’2” 200 lbs and highly athletic and I can’t help but get giddy over another Chris McAlister/Jimmy Smith.

But if he’s not particularly a playmaker or a shutdown guy, then I’m not interested. I loved the idea that Baltimore would be drafting a Baltimore guy though.

Perhaps after the hype settles, he’ll be a 3rd round guy we can get later in the draft if we go WR early.