Top 5 TE to start the 2022 Season

[Soggust]

13 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

So basically he is exactly what MOST people claim he is. A borderline top tier player whose talent flashes but he has yet to put it together. He could take the leap if he starts producing at a higher clip... but he hasn't yet.

I really don't see what we arguing about here then.

Fwiw I would have Goedert ranked at 6th as well. I don't think you "tiers" are accurate but it is close enough.

Well when someone suggests that the number 6 (lets say) is better than a top 3ish player, there is such a bigger gap than comparing #25 and #29 e.g, that it's easy to offer pushback.

For example, the forum voted on Russell Wilson as the #6 QB prior to Brady returning. It's Burrow now (and this still applies), but I like Wilson as an example even better.

If a Broncos/Seahawks fan (or a Bengals fan claiming Burrow) posted that Russell Wilson is arguably a better QB than Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, I think most people would debate that, lol.

And even in those cases, at least Burrow and Wilson have actual big seasons. So I would actually think it's a closer argument than trying to project a guy who's best season is 830 yards over a guy who's gone for 1140+ 2/3 years he's started because he was injured half the year last year. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Soggust

[Soggust]

Again, let me clarify - Goedert is a clear upgrade at TE1 for the majority of teams. Certainly, it's fair to be excited about that and you don't have a "hole" at TE1 by any means.

I hate having to defend Waller, because he is trash as a Raider, but it's just hard to argue he's not really good trash. 

edit - lets call him recycling

Edited May 25, 2022 by Soggust

[ThatJerkDave]

This thread needs more Tony Moeaki.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

Well when someone suggests that the number 6 (lets say) is better than a top 3ish player, there is such a bigger gap than comparing #25 and #29 e.g, that it's easy to offer pushback.

For example, the forum voted on Russell Wilson as the #6 QB prior to Brady returning. It's Burrow now (and this still applies), but I like Wilson as an example even better.

If a Broncos/Seahawks fan (or a Bengals fan claiming Burrow) posted that Russell Wilson is arguably a better QB than Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, I think most people would debate that, lol.

And even in those cases, at least Burrow and Wilson have actual big seasons. So I would actually think it's a closer argument than trying to project a guy who's best season is 830 yards over a guy who's gone for 1140+ 2/3 years he's started because he was injured half the year last year. 

I mean I think the whole point of discussing anything in the offseason is projecting right? No one has a clue what will unfold in the coming season. Like I said I for sure wouldn't die on a Goedert > Waller hill, but I think it would be fair to say Goedert's best days are ahead of him still. Waller probably continues to be a great player when healthy but you also just never know what happens going forwards.

It also just sucks cause Goedert has never had a reliable QB to get him the football when he was TE1 for the Eagles where a guy like Waller has had competent+ QB play for most of his career. 

I get people will always just point to production and use that as the only point of the argument, but if you put Goedert in an offense with a QB like Carr for a season how would he perform? That is where my mind is at and I don't think it is unreasonable to think this way.

[TheRealMcCoy]

4 hours ago, Soggust said:

T4) Goedert
T4) Schultz
T4) Gronk

This is disrespectful 

[TheRealMcCoy]

On 5/24/2022 at 5:50 AM, Soggust said:

Glad I missed this thread and I didn't have to defend a Raider, because Goedert > Waller is a terrible take currently lol.

Glad you missed the thread cause you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Soggust]

35 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

Glad you missed the thread cause you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Are you suggesting now that you didn't make that claim or are you really going to try to make the case that Goedert is better because Waller was injured for half a year? 

You're right the whole world is probably wrong and it's not you being blinded by Eagles-colored glasses.

[Soggust]

38 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

This is disrespectful 

To who lol? 

[TheRealMcCoy]

3 minutes ago, Soggust said:

To who lol? 

Goedert. You obviously haven't watched him play or Schultz.

I don't care what counting stats say. If you watch them play there is no way you say Schultz is as good of a TE as Goedert is. Nothing on his tape is that impressive. He just got a ton of targets. He's a nice chain mover, but he doesn't flash like the top TEs in the league which Goedert is one of. Gronk is also not the Gronk he used to be. Dudes body is breaking down. Goedert would put up way higher stats with a Brady, Carr, or Prescott. 

[TheRealMcCoy]

6 minutes ago, Soggust said:

You're right the whole world is probably wrong and it's not you being blinded by Eagles-colored glasses.

Not gonna argue with someone who doesn't watch a lot of Eagles tape and just looks at counting stats and doesn't consider context in any way.

[Soggust]

39 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

Goedert. You obviously haven't watched him play or Schultz.

I don't care what counting stats say. If you watch them play there is no way you say Schultz is as good of a TE as Goedert is. Nothing on his tape is that impressive. He just got a ton of targets. He's a nice chain mover, but he doesn't flash like the top TEs in the league which Goedert is one of. Gronk is also not the Gronk he used to be. Dudes body is breaking down.

Well, remember these are tiers so I'm not particularly saying Gronk/Schultz are better  but rather, I can see fair arguments for them.

Gronk's body breaking down is the reason he's T4 instead of T1.  It's baked into the price already. Seems weird to debate this one. 

Schultz has had better years the last two years. Why would I care if he's "flashy" or not (also this works against Goedert in the Waller debate, presumably)?

And why do we apply context for having Ertz taking targets or not having a QB, but we don't apply context like having to play with a 197 YPG Andy Dalton or compete for targets against better WRs than D Smith? We can literally make these excuses for every TE in the NFL, sans maybe Kelce lol.

I mean - it's literally the Baker Mayfield argument. "Oh he just needs a great RB, awesome WRs, a strong DST, a coach calling easy plays, etc etc etc".

A top 5 TE doesn't need excuses currently in year 5 about why he can't produce (relatively - again not he's not terrible), /shrug.

 

38 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

Not gonna argue with someone who doesn't watch a lot of Eagles tape and just looks at counting stats and doesn't consider context in any way.

 

Np at all.

No need to argue with someone who wants to make excuses and best-case scenarios for their own players, but not apply that same context equally across the board. 

I promise you I hate the Raiders much more than the Eagles. I have no dog in this fight. You're just being a homer on Goedert over Waller lol.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Soggust

[TheRealMcCoy]

1 minute ago, Soggust said:

Well, remember these are tiers so I'm not particularly saying Gronk/Schultz are better  but rather, I can see fair arguments for them.

Gronk's body breaking down is the reason he's T4 instead of T1.  It's baked into the price already. Seems weird to debate this one. 

Schultz has had better years the last two years. Why would I care if he's "flashy" or not (also this goes works Goedert in the Waller debate, presumably)?

And why do we apply context for having Ertz taking targets or not having a QB, but we don't apply context like having to play with a 197 YPG Andy Dalton or compete for targets against better WRs than D Smith? We can literally make these excuses for every TE in the NFL, sans maybe Kelce lol.

I mean - it's literally the Baker Mayfield argument. "Oh he just needs a great RB, awesome WRs, a strong DST, a coach calling easy plays, etc etc etc".

A top 5 TE doesn't need excuses currently in year 5 about why he can't produce (relatively - again not he's not terrible), /shrug.

 

 

Np at all.

No need to argue with someone who wants to make excuses and best-case scenarios for their own players, but not apply that same context equally across the board. 

I promise you I hate the Raiders much more than the Eagles. I have no dog in this fight. You're just being a homer on Goedert over Waller lol.

Yeah nothing you wrote there is worth responding to.

I'll let you stick with preconceived notions and not having watched film and just looking at box scores to scout.

[Soggust]

1 minute ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

Yeah nothing you wrote there is worth responding to.

I'll let you stick with preconceived notions and not having watched film and just looking at box scores to scout.

Don't let logic get in the way of your argument, I understand.

[TheRealMcCoy]

16 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Don't let logic get in the way of your argument, I understand.

Kittle was tied with Goedert in PFF's grading as 2nd best TE in the league only behind Mark Andrews, but sure he's in the same tier as Gronk who is on his last legs and Schultz who doesn't do anything overly impressive and is a chain moving guy who just got a **** ton of targets in a pass happy offense.

Like I said I don't have any interest in discussing Goedert in depth with someone who doesn't use context and just reads stat pages. This isn't fantasy football.

[diamondbull424]

7 hours ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Source?

Find it very hard to believe he ran more routes in a season where he played in 4 less games even if the Eagles ran the ball more than any other team in 2021. He was a starter for about half the 2020 season after Ertz was hurt, but I would still be surprised.

And you can spin a narrative however you want, I frankly don't care. I am looking at the reality of the situation. The Eagles thought so lowly of him as a pass catcher that they traded Zach Ertz and gave him a top 5 TE contract. Goedert when starting has played with: 2020 Wentz who was a complete disaster.... and Jalen Hurts who was not capable of running a true passing attack in 2021. 

Yes, he has issues and is not currently elite, but this argument that you are trying to frame him as some average talent whose numbers reflect his on field play is 100% completely incorrect.

Average? That’s a straw man, he LITERALLY said he’s a good TE. You’re the one confusing “good” with average.

Also Waller has shown legit top 3 TE impact when healthy, whereas Goedert has never done so in his career. Yet you feel it’s close enough to “not scoff” at Goedert above him?

That’s like me saying JK Dobbins is better than Derrick Henry because “he had 6.0 YPC and if he had 378 carries just imagine what he could do with them! And anyone who doesn’t agree is a hater who believes Dobbins is average.”