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EliteTexan80

Texans off-season thread

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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:38 PM, Pastor Dillon said:

I dont think we are going to get either of them, but your explanation couldnt be more wrong. He would save SOO much money playing in texas vs California. We have a better franchise QB in Watson, and we also have plenty of money.

He will save Some money (salaries are now divided and taxed by the State each game is played in now, so they pay State Income Tax on away games).  The point I'm making is :


- He knows their Defense. 

- He's in California and Houston (while I love it) is not California.  He

- We may have a Franchise QB, but so do they.  Yes we have Watt/Clowney, but they have a much better secondary and Aaron Donald.  And Gurley.  It's a wash

- Ok, maybe we have $, but we have a TON of holes, and Clowney will make quite a dent. They do too, and we aren't going to break the bank.  And shouldn't.  He's solid, but not elite. If he was, they would just Franchise him.

 

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I guess this is the defacto off season thread?

Malcom Butler is a real possibility for us this off season. 

Hopkins is already pushing for it online, which is funny because hes basically saying how terrible our CBs are. 

I really want to know why he wasnt good enough to play in the super bowl when they could not stop the other team. Was he in trouble or hurt or both or what. Seems like as bad as that Pats D was, if you werent good enough for it, then we dont want you. but still hes a real possibility. 

 

according to PFF Butler was the 51st ranked CB in the league last year. That might seem low, when you take into account there are 64 starting corners and another 32 nicklebacks at minimum, its means he was an average to above average CB. He did struggle in the playoffs, which has me thinking something went wrong somewhere. 

Spotrac puts his market value at 5 years 65 million dollars or 13 million per year. That seems like a lot to me, but if we can get Kareem Jackson to restructure his deal, or just cut him outright we can do it. Jackson is on the hook for 9 million next year, but we can cut him and save 6.5 million. I would rather give Butler 13 million as opposed to paying Jackson 9 million. I also want to bring back JJoe on a reduced deal as well. Butler/Johnson/Jackson/Joseph is not a horrible group of CBs, especially if we can get them some saftey help. 

 

either way O-Line and Secondary are the two biggest areas of weakness

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4 hours ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Malcom Butler is a real possibility for us this off season. 

I have him as the top priority this off-season. Last year, he was a boarderline elite CB - then all of the trade drama this past off-season no doubt impacted him.

He's going to have a chip on his shoulder and play back to his normal skills.

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1 hour ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I have him as the top priority this off-season. Last year, he was a boarderline elite CB - then all of the trade drama this past off-season no doubt impacted him.

He's going to have a chip on his shoulder and play back to his normal skills.

And he will be super motivated against the Pats. 

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1 hour ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I have him as the top priority this off-season. Last year, he was a boarderline elite CB - then all of the trade drama this past off-season no doubt impacted him.

He's going to have a chip on his shoulder and play back to his normal skills.

Butler and elite is pure fan fiction based upon a lucky SB catch on a horrific playcall - when he was their #5 CB.  The Pats secondary struggled in 2016 and brought in Gilmore to fix it because Butler is merely average and was getting roasted by #1's.  Butler was basically hidden on the field with Gilmore shadowing #1s and their other 4 DBs sitting back in zones.  Butler got destroyed by top flight bigger receivers so having Eric Rowe help out on Jeffery and pitch in stopping Blount/Ajayi/Clement made plenty of football sense to go with Chung/McCourty on Ertz. The only thing Torry Smith has is speed and Butler doesn't (4.62), so why risk a cheap bomb to a secondary target.  Butler reacted like a big baby diva and Belichick wasn't having any of it from a guy who was a substandard player all season (50ish in PFF) and said don't let the door hit you.  We already have plenty of players in this secondary who's opinion of themselves is widely disputed by their actual play, so I have little interest in a slower Kareem Jackson.

This looks like Kevin Johnson to me.  Dude is all Pats rep and one big play in another super bowl he rode the bench in. It's one thing to have Julio Junes punk you up and down the field, but if you want "elite money" you can't get wrecked by Emmanuel Sanders on a simple slant.  Heck, I you recall Jaelen Strong torched him for a TD in the preseason on a throw from Savage, so whatever rep this guy has, I'm more inclined to believe Belichick felt the risk of putting out a player more concerned about partying and his next contract than actually putting the work in to improve makes sense.  Dude had major lapses out there all season and clearly lost the trust of the staff.

 

Edited by Apollo Stallion

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14 hours ago, Apollo Stallion said:

The Pats secondary struggled in 2016 and brought in Gilmore to fix it because Butler is merely average and was getting roasted by #1's

Singling this out - PFF had him graded as the #2 CB in football in 2016 - back when he was shadowing #1s all over the field:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-top-25-nfl-cornerbacks-this-season

(For reference - this was when AJ Bouye had his breakout for us. Bouye was ranked 7th).

Given the off-season drama he had - deal in principle with the Saints to make him one of the top paid CBs in the NFL, only to have Belicheck nix the deal and play him on the restricted FA tag (so, minimum wage for his experience) I get the regression this season. You don't want a guy who is only interested about money, but his signing bonus with New Orleans was set to be 5x what he made this season at New England - you can't expect someone to just ignore this and "do their job" as Belly wants.

Emmanuel Sanders went on record to say that Butler is the toughest CB he's faced, and Hopkins shared his feelings on him - and they've played against one another enough to make a solid judgement call on who Butler is.

EDIT: Here's the comments from Sanders. This is beyond an X's and O's breakdown, it's a phenomenal breakdown of technique and instinct needed at the pro level for a few CBs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theplayerstribune.com/emmanuel-sanders-broncos-5-toughest-corners/amp/

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23 hours ago, Apollo Stallion said:

Butler and elite is pure fan fiction based upon a lucky SB catch on a horrific playcall - when he was their #5 CB.  The Pats secondary struggled in 2016 and brought in Gilmore to fix it because Butler is merely average and was getting roasted by #1's.  Butler was basically hidden on the field with Gilmore shadowing #1s and their other 4 DBs sitting back in zones.  Butler got destroyed by top flight bigger receivers so having Eric Rowe help out on Jeffery and pitch in stopping Blount/Ajayi/Clement made plenty of football sense to go with Chung/McCourty on Ertz. The only thing Torry Smith has is speed and Butler doesn't (4.62), so why risk a cheap bomb to a secondary target.  Butler reacted like a big baby diva and Belichick wasn't having any of it from a guy who was a substandard player all season (50ish in PFF) and said don't let the door hit you.  We already have plenty of players in this secondary who's opinion of themselves is widely disputed by their actual play, so I have little interest in a slower Kareem Jackson.

This looks like Kevin Johnson to me.  Dude is all Pats rep and one big play in another super bowl he rode the bench in. It's one thing to have Julio Junes punk you up and down the field, but if you want "elite money" you can't get wrecked by Emmanuel Sanders on a simple slant.  Heck, I you recall Jaelen Strong torched him for a TD in the preseason on a throw from Savage, so whatever rep this guy has, I'm more inclined to believe Belichick felt the risk of putting out a player more concerned about partying and his next contract than actually putting the work in to improve makes sense.  Dude had major lapses out there all season and clearly lost the trust of the staff.

 

I think that clip you showed is a poor example of Butler not being good. He was in good position on a back shoulder pass, which is very difficult to defend. Butler is a sound corner with very good recovery speed, and he is the exact opposite of Jackson when it comes to locating the football. He would be a huge upgrade to our secondary. We still need to find a legit safety.

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man, seeing the Eagles come up big after getting all these guys in FA last year makes me really hopeful regarding our lack of picks this year

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39 minutes ago, jch1911 said:

 

Urgh. Was rated slightly higher than Kevin Johnson this past season. Had a good six game stretch for Washington, parlayed that into a pretty big contract with Oakland and completely bombed out.

Pass, please.

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I've heard a few people speculating on names who might be cut this season - in terms of what we need along the OL, there are some really interesting names to be mindful of:

- Andy Levetrie 

- Zach Strief 

- Jason Peters

- Jonathan Cooper

There is some value to be had there - Streif could be a great RT on a 2year deal, Cooper and Levetrie would be immediate upgrades over Allen/Susan. Peters is older and an injury concern, but still worth putting his name up as an option.

Anyone else I'm missing? Nate Solder is the main name, but anyone else?

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Andrew Norwell, G Panthers should be high on our list to get. Another name would be Justin Pugh.  I wouldn't sign him to start at tackle but he is a serviceable guard.

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17 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I've heard a few people speculating on names who might be cut this season - in terms of what we need along the OL, there are some really interesting names to be mindful of:

- Andy Levetrie 

- Zach Strief 

- Jason Peters

- Jonathan Cooper

There is some value to be had there - Streif could be a great RT on a 2year deal, Cooper and Levetrie would be immediate upgrades over Allen/Susan. Peters is older and an injury concern, but still worth putting his name up as an option.

Anyone else I'm missing? Nate Solder is the main name, but anyone else?

I'll put money on James Daniels C/G Iowa being one of our 3rd rounders.  This draft is going to have O'Brien's stamp all over it, so I expect a ton of O'Brien buddy picks and he's tapped the Brian Ferentz connection before with Fido who may have been the most predictable choice in the O'Brien era since he and Brian coached TE's together in New England.  I honestly think one of the reason's O'Brien is keeping the OC spot open is to lure Ferentz away from daddy and his lifetime contract at Iowa.  IMO Left Guard is the most critical to BoB's offense as we absolutely need an athletic guard who can pull and get to the next level while also being able to cover the inside of the tackle which XSF was completely incapable of doing, especially when DB wasn't around to save him.

A guy I haven't heard mentioned much is Weston Richburg C/G Giants.  He was one of the lone bright spots on the Giants line for years and a top 3 Center overall before going down last year with concussion issues that definitely need to be vetted.  However, those concerns will dampen his market value making him a potential bargain.  Personally, I don't think the Texans line has been the same since we kicked Chris Myers to the curb and Richburg is the kind of smart savvy "QB of the o-line" we need on a line that desperately needs veteran leadership.  I'm fine with developing Nick Martin, but ultimately I think he's going to have to settle in at right guard as his mobility was already an issue and two consecutive season ending ankle injuries on top of a college knee injury ain't going to have him confused for Jason Kelce out front pulling. 

TE Duane Allen is another off the radar guy I can see the Texans going after and I'd fully support it.  He fizzled in Indy once Luck got hurt and the Pats traded a 4th rounder for him & their 6th.  The Pats really didn't do much with him, but Gronk was relatively healthy and they've shifted away from 2 TE looks to feature way more White/Burkhead/Lewis in the passing game.  You might recall Allen was Hopkins teammate for 3 years at Clemson and it seems like Nuk is playing Assistant GM/Photoshop expert these days (IMO Jimmy Graham ain't worth the $$).  Allen is a decent red zone target, but mainly an excellent blocker which we sorely need at the TE spot even if Fido plays again. He's got 2 years left on his admittedly bad Grigson deal, but at $5 million & $7.4 million with no cap hit, he'll likely either be traded again for a late pick or a cap casualty.  I don't see too much to get excited about on the RT front, so having a 265lb beast helping generate an outside running game beats expecting our 225lb slot/TE Stephen Anderson doing anything but get in the way. 

I'd certainly like Solder (Peters will retire an Eagle), but so would about 28 other teams including NE who I doubt wants to break in a new LT for the Brady/Belichick swansong, so I think we're going to be stuck developing Davenport at LT and I could live with moving Jeff Allen out to RT since he actually played his best football at Tackle last year.  I'd draft a developmental RT for sure and another athletic guard since I just don't see Quessenberry or Newton as anything more than wishful thinking. I'd welcome Mancz back as interior line depth as Martin and Richburg both require an insurance plan health-wise. 

Personally, I'd prefer spending most of our capspace in the secondary on proven coverage talent with speed and wouldn't shy away from high priced older vet cap casualties like Talib, DRC, or Vontae Davis.  I'd use our limited draft resources fixing guard, having enough tackles to make sure Giacomini or Lamm don't even sniff a camp invite, and throwing a pick or two at WR/TE/RB/QB depth. 

 

Edited by Apollo Stallion

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Sammy Watkins

There is speculation that he will not be kept in LA, and that he could have a very limited market, and end up going somewhere on the cheap. Normally i wouldnt suggest this, but how cool would it be to have the best QB in clemson history throwing to the best WR duo in Clemson history....Dabo would have to come after BOB gets run out of town

 

not to mention resigning Andre Ellington.....

Edited by Pastor Dillon

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