1 Year Peak: Who's the 3rd best WR of all time behind Rice/Moss

[AngusMcFife]

45 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

So here's my thought process...

"Oh it's gotta be Calvin Johnson."

reads the thread about Cooper Kupp

"Well, Cooper Kupp outproduced Calvin with the same exact QB throwing him the ball and just shattered numerous receiving records"

So yeah, I'm going to go Kupp here since it's just a 1-year peak.

You don't think coaching and supporting cast had a major impact on production? Also the league passing environment is easier than in 2012.  

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

You don't think coaching and supporting cast had a major impact on production? Also the league passing environment is easier than in 2012.  

Coaching and supporting cast always have a major impact on production. Kupp's production last year in both the regular season and postseason is definitely the best in NFL history.

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Coaching and supporting cast always have a major impact on production. Kupp's production last year in both the regular season and postseason is definitely the best in NFL history.

Are you sure about that?

For instance, in 1942 Don Hutson had 1211 yards and 17 TDs.

The next closest player in those categories had 571 yards and 8 TDs. 

Don Hutson was far, far more dominant than Kupp. Not even close. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

15 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

You don't think coaching and supporting cast had a major impact on production? Also the league passing environment is easier than in 2012.  

Sure they did. Doesn't change Kupp's dominance though.

[AngusMcFife]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Sure they did. Doesn't change Kupp's dominance though.

Kupp got schemed open a lot. McVeigh is probably a top-3 offensive mind in the past 20 years. I think if you put Megatron in Kupp's position, Megatron outproduces Kupp. 

[FrantikRam]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Kupp got schemed open a lot. McVeigh is probably a top-3 offensive mind in the past 20 years. I think if you put Megatron in Kupp's position, Megatron outproduces Kupp. 

 

This assumes that Megatron is actually better than Kupp at everything, which he is not.

Kupp is a superior route runner, and Kupp's biggest strength is being able to read defenses like a QB. They're two completely different players and it's not as simple as Megatron > Kupp because there's quite a bit that Kupp does better than him on a football field.

[FrantikRam]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Are you sure about that?

For instance, in 1942 Don Hutson had 1211 yards and 17 TDs.

The next closest player in those categories had 571 yards and 8 TDs. 

Don Hutson was far, far more dominant than Kupp. Not even close. 

 

Well, Kupp had 2425 yards and 22 TDs

Next closest had 1823 and 14 TDs

 

You may want to look at the actual differences there before making such a claim:

2022 - Kupp has number two by 602 yards and 8 TDs

1942 - Hutston has number two by 640 yards and 9 TDs

 

Not even close? That's pretty damn close. Even more impressive when you consider that in 1942, defenses had zero idea how to defend the pass.

[AngusMcFife]

10 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

This assumes that Megatron is actually better than Kupp at everything, which he is not.

Kupp is a superior route runner, and Kupp's biggest strength is being able to read defenses like a QB. They're two completely different players and it's not as simple as Megatron > Kupp because there's quite a bit that Kupp does better than him on a football field.

I mean, you'd have to do a lot of work to prove those points, I'm not going to take them at face value. 

I'm going to need to see Kupp produce at a high level of a couple more consecutive years before anointing him. Before 2021 he was a good possession receiver, and now he's supposedly the best in the league?  3rd best of all time? He's definitely ascended into the top tier of WRs, but I will wait to see if he can sustain it. I think if you put a prime Megatron in place of 2021, he'd have monster numbers too. 

[FrantikRam]

1 minute ago, AngusMcFife said:

I mean, you'd have to do a lot of work to prove those points, I'm not going to take them at face value. 

I'm going to need to see Kupp produce at a high level of a couple more consecutive years before anointing him. Before 2021 he was a good possession receiver, and now he's supposedly the best in the league?  3rd best of all time? He's definitely ascended into the top tier of WRs, but I will wait to see if he can sustain it. I think if you put a prime Megatron in place of 2021, he'd have monster numbers too. 

 

 

I'd have to do a lot of work to prove that Kupp is a better route runner than Calvin Johnson? So you just haven't watched Kupp play?

He was 6th in the NFL in 2020 in run after catch and 11th in 2019, when he had 1200 yards and 10 TDs

With Jared Goff throwing him the ball.

In 2018 he was on track for that before getting injured.

 

He has the almost exact same speed/agility/acceleration numbers as Davante Adams. He has quite literally never been a possession receiver in the NFL.

 

 

[AngusMcFife]

7 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

Well, Kupp had 2425 yards and 22 TDs

Next closest had 1823 and 14 TDs

 

You may want to look at the actual differences there before making such a claim:

2022 - Kupp has number two by 602 yards and 8 TDs

1942 - Hutston has number two by 640 yards and 9 TDs

 

Not even close? That's pretty damn close. Even more impressive when you consider that in 1942, defenses had zero idea how to defend the pass.

That's really horrible statistical analysis. First off you are comparing bulk stats of a guy who played 21 games vs one who played 17 games. 

In 2021 Kupp had 1.6% of receiving yards, and 2% of receiving TDs in the NFL

In 1942 Hutson had 8.9% of receiving yards, 16% of receiving TDs in the NFL.

Given that there were 10 teams in the league in 1942, if Kupp were to be that dominant, he would have 3685 receiving yards and 45 TDs in a single season. There are better ways to contextualize statistics than addition and subtraction. 

FYI people in 1942 had a hard time defending Hutson because he invented modern route running, not because defenses had zero idea how to defend the pass. In fact, it is much more accurate to say that offenses didn't know how to pass in 1942 than defenses didn't know how to defend passing. 

[AngusMcFife]

15 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

 

I'd have to do a lot of work to prove that Kupp is a better route runner than Calvin Johnson? So you just haven't watched Kupp play?

He was 6th in the NFL in 2020 in run after catch and 11th in 2019, when he had 1200 yards and 10 TDs

With Jared Goff throwing him the ball.

In 2018 he was on track for that before getting injured.

 

He has the almost exact same speed/agility/acceleration numbers as Davante Adams. He has quite literally never been a possession receiver in the NFL.

 

 

He averaged 10.6 and 12.4 yards per pass in his previous 2 seasons as starter with high catch % per target, those are possession WR numbers. 

[AngusMcFife]

28 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

He was 6th in the NFL in 2020 in run after catch and 11th in 2019, when he had 1200 yards and 10 TDs

You are proving my point. He catches the ball relatively short compared to other WR1s, but gets his yardage on YAC. 

[FrantikRam]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

That's really horrible statistical analysis. First off you are comparing bulk stats of a guy who played 21 games vs one who played 17 games. 

In 2021 Kupp had 1.6% of receiving yards, and 2% of receiving TDs in the NFL

In 1942 Hutson had 8.9% of receiving yards, 16% of receiving TDs in the NFL.

Given that there were 10 teams in the league in 1942, if Kupp were to be that dominant, he would have 3685 receiving yards and 45 TDs in a single season. There are better ways to contextualize statistics than addition and subtraction. 

FYI people in 1942 had a hard time defending Hutson because he invented modern route running, not because defenses had zero idea how to defend the pass. In fact, it is much more accurate to say that offenses didn't know how to pass in 1942 than defenses didn't know how to defend passing. 

 

That was Kupp vs Chase. Both played 17 games.

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

He has the almost exact same speed/agility/acceleration numbers as Davante Adams. He has quite literally never been a possession receiver in the NFL.

Let's look at average depth per target per year for the Rams:

2018
Cooks: 12.8
Woods: 11.4
Kupp: 8.4

2019

Cooks: 13.9
Woods: 8.4
Kupp: 7.2

2020

Woods: 7.0
Reynolds: 10.9
Kupp: 6.3

Kupp absolutely was a "possession receiver" the 3 years prior to 2021. Of the 3 primary WRs, he ran by far the shortest routes, and it's not even close. 

[FrantikRam]

57 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

You are proving my point. He catches the ball relatively short compared to other WR1s, but gets his yardage on YAC. 

 

That was mainly because of Goff.

And again, he's always been extremely dynamic after the catch, so not what I would call a possession WR.