FrantikRam Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 2 hours ago, lancerman said: Mahomes didn’t start until year 2 unlike Herbert. Also Mahomes started with the best TE in the league and the fastest WR who was All Pro caliber. Herbert was a year one starter who came onto a pretty mediocre team and balled out in spite of the talent around him. Mahomes is obviously better, but you can’t expect everyone to have a HOF offensively focused coach and stacked offense for your QB who got to sit and develop for a year to slide into. Most first round QB’s are going to end up in Herbert’s situation. So it’s a more realistic comp Wilson and Luck then. Both took their teams to the playoffs in year one. Wilsons weapons were worse than Herbert's (although the d was a lot better) - Lucks weapons were worse, defense also wasnt great. Herbert is a good player and I'm not usually a QB winzzz guy, but at some point we have to acknowledge that having Ekeler, Allen and Williams is more than enough for a supposed elite QB to make the playoffs - especially when we're talking about the 6 or 7 seed in what was a mediocre AFC for his first two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 7 hours ago, FrantikRam said: Wilson and Luck then. Both took their teams to the playoffs in year one. Wilsons weapons were worse than Herbert's (although the d was a lot better) - Lucks weapons were worse, defense also wasnt great. Herbert is a good player and I'm not usually a QB winzzz guy, but at some point we have to acknowledge that having Ekeler, Allen and Williams is more than enough for a supposed elite QB to make the playoffs - especially when we're talking about the 6 or 7 seed in what was a mediocre AFC for his first two years. Wilson was not a top tier QB year one. The first couple years in Seattle were more about the LOB dominating. Also Luck's team was in a SB a couple years before he got there. They also had a winning record the year after as well. Way too many people act like the Colts were atrocious because of 2011 when Peyton went down. They had the worst QB's in the league as replacements who probably shouldn't have been playing. Luck was very good his rookie year, but he was also throwing to Reggie Wayne who had his second best year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 12:51 PM, Yin-Yang said: You’re not wrong, but in all fairness, Urban Meyer was infinitely worse than anyone expected… Depends on who you ask 😉 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 Trevor Lawrence was never the slam dunk prospect everyone made him out to be. Good player and still worthy of being the top pick in the draft last year, but I didnt see him on the level of guys like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck when they came out. He was closer to Matt Ryan when he came out, just with alot of extra hype. That being said, and as many others have noted, not many QBs could come onto a situation like that and be successful. The team was devoid of talent on offense and just oozed with incompetence from the top down. Hopefully a better environment with an actual profession at head coach can help him. Even if Pederson is only average, thats still a significant step up from Meyer. I expect Lawrence to turn it around, but I dont expect him to ever come close to what everyone expected him to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 6 hours ago, lancerman said: Wilson was not a top tier QB year one. The first couple years in Seattle were more about the LOB dominating. Also Luck's team was in a SB a couple years before he got there. They also had a winning record the year after as well. Way too many people act like the Colts were atrocious because of 2011 when Peyton went down. They had the worst QB's in the league as replacements who probably shouldn't have been playing. Luck was very good his rookie year, but he was also throwing to Reggie Wayne who had his second best year. I'd still argue that Colts team wasn't as good as Herbert's Chargers his rookie year. And Herbert had Allen who is probably the same caliber WR as Wayne. Overall point here being that Herbert is a really good player - but if he doesn't lead the Chargers to the playoffs this year it's time to start asking questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 Biggest ever. The hype was crazy. It was nauseating. It's like people can't learn. Honestly, biggest ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, FrantikRam said: Wilson and Luck then. Both took their teams to the playoffs in year one. Wilsons weapons were worse than Herbert's (although the d was a lot better) - Lucks weapons were worse, defense also wasnt great. Herbert is a good player and I'm not usually a QB winzzz guy, but at some point we have to acknowledge that having Ekeler, Allen and Williams is more than enough for a supposed elite QB to make the playoffs - especially when we're talking about the 6 or 7 seed in what was a mediocre AFC for his first two years. Wilson in year 1 had Marshawn Lynch and an all-time great defense behind him lol. Herbert has way better numbers than Wilson did early in his career. Luck made the playoffs but I think it’s worth noting that statistically the 2012 Colts are one of the worst teams to ever make the playoffs based on SOS and point differential. The QB your team just won the SB with missed the playoffs more often than not when he was with the Lions. Idk how anyone who watched our games and saw how absolutely terrible our defense was down the stretch of the season can blame Herbert for why we missed the playoffs. He put us in position to win games time after time and the defense would consistently blow it. Edited May 20, 2022 by Bolts223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notthatbluestuff Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Great thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 On 5/20/2022 at 9:16 AM, 43M said: Trevor Lawrence was never the slam dunk prospect everyone made him out to be. Good player and still worthy of being the top pick in the draft last year, but I didnt see him on the level of guys like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck when they came out. He was closer to Matt Ryan when he came out, just with alot of extra hype. That being said, and as many others have noted, not many QBs could come onto a situation like that and be successful. The team was devoid of talent on offense and just oozed with incompetence from the top down. Hopefully a better environment with an actual profession at head coach can help him. Even if Pederson is only average, thats still a significant step up from Meyer. I expect Lawrence to turn it around, but I dont expect him to ever come close to what everyone expected him to be. I think he was a better prospect than Luck. But one player is not enough to overcome one of the worst franchises in NFL history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 Its fair to say he sucked last year. Its also fair to say he was coached by a moron. This might be one of those cases where a bad but not terrible year 2 is OK as long as you see improvement along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 10:34 AM, Ray Reed said: To be fair it doesn't help that across the division, Davis Mills walked into a situation many expected to be even worse than the Jaguars going into last season, and at least had some semblance of encouraging play. I get the supporting cast argument but Trevor Lawrence also played bad last year and I think that gets lost a lot when people have these discussions about him I tend to disagree with this take. While David Culley was not a good coach, he wasn’t a terrible leader of men. He was probably below average schematically, bad from a game management perspective, but average to above average from a leadership (leader of men) perspective. All that adds up to below the lame duck threshold and it makes sense why he could be fired. That said, Urban Meyer probably was something like below average schematically, below average in game management, and WOAT level leader of men. So while I do feel Trevor Lawrence was a little overrated when he came out and I just assumed it was something I wasn’t seeing within him (as I’m not the the best QB evaluator), I do think playing for that level of embarrassment would take a reasonable toll on a player with those expectations on his shoulders. That said, if he does perform to the same level as last season, I’m not giving him another season. I get the circumstance he found himself within and its tough, but to not improve to a reasonable enough level in year two would tell me Lawrence just doesn’t have ‘IT’ and that’s essentially what he was supposed to be as one of the GOAT QB prospects. In the modern NFL QBs with legit ‘it’ factor have shown up in year one and year two more often than not. I need to at least see Josh Allen level progression that he had from year 1 to year 2 for me to feel comfortable assuming Lawrence isn’t on the bust track. If he’s the same guy as last season FTMP with only marginal improvement than no excuses. He’s had time to study, train, and get the generational pressure off his back. Now expectations are just to be ‘good’ and not ‘transcendent’ this season; so if he fails, he will then be guilty until proven innocent vs the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Think the Urban fiasco helps him in terms of not looking too bad if he doesn't pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/20/2022 at 9:16 AM, 43M said: Trevor Lawrence was never the slam dunk prospect everyone made him out to be. Good player and still worthy of being the top pick in the draft last year, but I didnt see him on the level of guys like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck when they came out. He was closer to Matt Ryan when he came out, just with alot of extra hype. That being said, and as many others have noted, not many QBs could come onto a situation like that and be successful. The team was devoid of talent on offense and just oozed with incompetence from the top down. Hopefully a better environment with an actual profession at head coach can help him. Even if Pederson is only average, thats still a significant step up from Meyer. I expect Lawrence to turn it around, but I dont expect him to ever come close to what everyone expected him to be. If Lawrence wasn’t a slam dunk QB prospect…there has yet to be a slam dunk QB prospect. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 51 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said: If Lawrence wasn’t a slam dunk QB prospect…there has yet to be a slam dunk QB prospect. In reality, thats actually true. There is never and will never be a true slam dunk prospect. That being said, if you are insinuating that Lawrence was the least flawed prospect to ever come out...I wholeheartedly disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 6 hours ago, sammymvpknight said: If Lawrence wasn’t a slam dunk QB prospect…there has yet to be a slam dunk QB prospect. Luck and Lawrence are by far the two most hyped/highly rated QB prospects in recent NFL draft history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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