The draft was still disappointing and Ron is failing as a GM

[taylor made]

So I wanted to wait a while to make a general draft negativity thread and not do something knee-jerk but I think my reaction is warranted. If you told me we would have drafted Jahan Dotson and Phidarian Mathis with our first two picks before the draft, I would have laughed in your face. Yet sadly, that is our reality. I know it's the time of the year to drink the Kool-Aid and be Rah-Rah but I like to look at things objectively if I can. I liked the trade down, but your first two drafts picks are the most important ones that will land you the most value. 

I think what concerns me the most is the change in draft philosophy from drafting players with high upside (athletic, junior class, All-Americans players) to players with average athletic profiles and senior class players. Yes, you might sometimes draft a Jamin Davis, but you can also draft players like Antonio Gibson and Samuel Cosmi.  The front office was pretty vocal about this change in philosophy as if we are supposed to be impressed. I do a lot of number crunching and draft research and I know that this isn't really a great strategy. Worse more is combining that strategy with the drafting of a high risk position like WR.  But somehow, Martin Mayhew "knows" better and comes out in the media and defends this polarizing draft class, where they drafted for need and desperately. 

But just like last year with Jamin Davis and the LB position, the team locked onto one position and one player in particular and reached on him. Talk about inflexible and desperate. 

Jahan Dotson: The best thing I like about Dotson is his personality. He's pretty easy to root for and he kind of reminds me of Steph Curry in a way. Like Curry though, he needs to bulk up.  I think Dotson profiles more of a WR2/slot receiver and that's just not getting good value for our 16th overall draft pick. You draft these type of WRs in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. He's got a lot of things I don't like: He's a Senior, he has average athleticism/size, he was never an All-American, and he plays in a conference that doesn't produce good first rounders like the other conferences do.  And like I said above, he plays WR which is a risky position to draft. That's a lot of things to overcome what I look for in a prospect and I'm not sure that having good hands and being able to catch the ball will overcome that. Objectively, the consensus was Treylon Burks over Jahan Dotson if you wanted a WR. Players who I would have preferred: LB Devin Lloyd, OG Zion Johnson, WR Treylon Burks, DT Jordan Davis (No trade down)

Phidarian Mathis: This might have been the most disappointing high round draft pick that I have seen this team draft in the last 5 years. Besides the absolute mismanagement of actually needing a DT, why are we picking a low ceiling high floor type prospect here? For $5 million a year, you re-sign DT Tim Settle and actually avoid needing to use a high pick on a DT. 

Brian Robinson: Finally a pick I could get on board with. 

Third Day: I think Cole Turner was the highlight here. I was never a Sam Howell fan. I’d be lying if I knew who Percy Butler was, but I felt that way about John Bates too last year. 

The other thing that bothers me about this regime is the total lack of direction in team building. It seems very passive and rudderless. It seemed like Rivera wanted to come in and rebuild our defense. That hasn't gone so well so halfway through his regime, he's changed his mind and wants to focus on offense. He’s just going in circles. I feel like Ron is trying to patch up leaks on a sinking boat.

Ron has made a lot of bold choices this off-season. I feel like he is putting his chips all on the table with Carson Wentz and gone “all-in”. But if we don’t make any progress this year, I feel like Ron needs to go. He’s not failing as a coach but more-so as a GM. On paper, we have had the best QB we have had in years, but besides that? Our roster isn’t any better and arguably worse than it was since Ron took over. Could that strategy work? Yep, it could. But it could also fail mercilessly. 

Hindsight is 20/20 but the team could have landed some interesting combinations that I think would have been better than what they did. Tell me our offense wouldn’t have been scarier in the now with that second combination of draft picks. 

No trade down: R1: DT Jordan Davis, Georgia, R2 Alec Pierce, Georgia R4: Isaiah Spiller, RB Texas A&M R5: WR Khalil Shakir, Boise St. . 

Trade Down: R1: WR Treylon Burks, Arkansas R2: WR Skyy Moore, Western Michgan R3: TE Jeremy Ruckert, Ohio St. R4: RB Isaiah Spiller, Texas A&M 

Oh well, what do I know? Sincerely, A checked out fan. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by taylor made

[lavar703]

I agree with you as far as their drafting goes. It was awful last year and I just can’t believe our first two picks ended up being Dotson and Mathis. I don’t agree with you on Howell but I’ve watched a ton of Howell throughout the years and am biased in my opinion. I loved the Brian Anderson pick but would’ve liked Spiller a lot as well.

If it were me I would’ve picked Olave and Dean with our first two picks. I didn’t particularly care about not having a third and wouldn’t have done the trade down from 11 because I don’t believe they got sufficient value. I mean, it really amounted to two 4th round picks essentially due to one being a compensation pick. 

They needed to nail this draft after the silly free agency period and the dumb Wentz trade. In my opinion, they blew it again. I have zero faith in Mayhews ability as a GM and Kyle Smith should be currently heading that role. If for some reason Snyder were to move on from this group, he’s not going too, but if he did I would just hire Kyle Smith back as GM and let him do his thing. 

[ovfd55]

I like the draft more looking back on it but that 100% my Bias as a fan I'm sure.

Too me this draft was one of the reasons you don't let the Head coach have Team Building control. It was a draft focused of getting Sure things not the best things to me. Ron knows he's a bad year from Dan hitting the blow up button and went and got solid players he trusted could do what he needed them to do this year.

Also this the second year in a row the draft has felt most preplanned like they have the picks set before the draft and draft them no matter who falls

[aceinthehouse]

I can't disagree more with those that think we did terrible this draft.

In fact, I'll go on record & say this will be the best draft we've had in 10 years.

Jahan Dotson has been lighting it up in OTA's.

I think he'll have an impressive rookie campaign.

Mathis was a 2nd Rd insurance policy (Payne & depth) There were teams that would have taken him that same 2nd round, had we not. That's been publicly said.

Robinson is a more pure RB than Gibson & I really like Gibson. Robinson is the kind of RB that finishes games & not fumble at critical times.

Percy Butler was my favorite pick in the draft. 2nd fastest Safety in the draft & he plays that fast too. He'll be starting by no later than the bye week, if not earlier.

Sam Howell might be the best QB in the draft class, who we got in the 5th Rd.

And I'm hearing that CB Christian is making noise in mini camp. I had no expectations of him & he might be a player, who we got in the 7th Rd.

We got a lot better after this draft. I have no doubt.

If Wentz plays the way he can?

We're winning @ least 11 games.

something we've never done under Snyder.

 

[turtle28]

It’s too soon for this post. Talk to me in three years about the 2021 & 2022 drafts.

As far as what I would’ve done this off-season, all of our ideas were well documented for months from last December till the draft.

1. I would’ve traded DaRon Payne in February to the Steelers or someone who needed a 3-4 NT that has the position flex to play as a 4-3 DT/5 tech & 3-tech as well for a 2nd round pick and a 5th or whatever.

2. I would’ve re-signed Settle to a contract worth $4 or $5 mil a year for 4 years. 

3. I would’ve kept Collins & Ioannidis but restructured their contracts.

4. I wouldn’t have traded for Wentz, but I don’t hate the move either bc he does still have tremendous upside. If he just makes the layups more as Chris Ballard said, we could have ourselves a top 10ish QB again for the first time since 2015-2017 when we had Kirk.

5. I would’ve signed Mitch Trubisky to compete w/ Heinicke to be our starter & of course still drafted one of my favorite QBs in the draft Sam Howell who at worst will be a good back up for years. At worst he has a Chase Daniel/Colt McCoy type career as a back up. At best he develops into a Baker Mayfield middle of the pack starter.

6. I would’ve signed Kyle Fuller to compete w/ BSJ to be our #3 CB and I would (we still may) sign Anthony Barr to be our starting SLB & situational pass rusher moving Chase to rush over guards at times on 3rd & Long.

7. My NFL Draft would’ve looked like this:

Rnd 1: Olave @ 11, I wouldn’t have traded down.

Rnd 2, I would’ve drafted Tre McBride, TE, Colorado St.

Rnd 3, I would’ve drafted Nakobe Dean. He was a steal for the Eagles in round 3.

Rnd 4: Sam Howell, QB, UNC

Rnd 6: Derain Kendrick, CB, Georgia 

Rnd 7: Chris Paul, G, Tulsa

Rnd 7: Rasheed Walker, OT/OG Penn State

Edited June 17, 2022 by turtle28

[ripsean21]

We should have just drafted Williams over Schreff and we wouldn’t have threads like these 🤣🤣🤣

[taylor made]

2 hours ago, ripsean21 said:

We should have just drafted Williams over Schreff and we wouldn’t have threads like these 🤣🤣🤣

It's a slow time of the year so let me vent 

[ripsean21]

9 minutes ago, taylor made said:

It's a slow time of the year so let me vent 

🤣🤣 I just had to make a joke lol. Hopefully the class sells you on the field. But vent on brother we all gotta get the Washington poisons out 

[offbyone]

I agree.  They seem to get ultra focused on positions, like we need a WR and blindly force that position.   And a lot of this comes down to a lack of long term vision.  Mathis, as you point out,  is the biggest example.  I like the pick, I don't like that we needed to make the pick because they dispensed of 2 DTs and basically told a 3rd he isn't gonna be here.  This is not building long term.  This lack of long term vision seems to be the big problem.  Rivera is struggling as a G.M.  when it comes to direction and long term planning.  I would rather they have picked Mathis a pick later because he was too good to pass up, rather than Mathis at top of the second because we desperately need a DT and we don't think we will get a good one if we don't make this pick now.

I'm looking at last draft still.  A 1st round pick drafted to be middle linebacker who couldn't start and now is being changed position.  A press man corner drafted into a defense that likes zone and is now being converted to an inside corner.  This kind of thing is a red flag for me.   It isn't so much about bad draft picks but bad GMing.  Same thing with free agency.  WJ3 is the ultimate example, a press corner brought in and asked to play zone.  They need to align player acquisition fit with scheme better.  To me "position flex" is another way to say "I am m not sure what the heck I'm gonna do with this player. "  That is a problem.  If when you scout a player you can't see exactly how they fit in your scheme, you better rethink acquiring that player.  

 

[MikeT14]

On 6/11/2022 at 11:11 AM, taylor made said:

Our roster isn’t any better and arguably worse than it was since Ron took over. Could that strategy work? Yep, it could. But it could also fail mercilessly. 

Go back and look at that 2019 squad. It's pretty gross. 

On 6/11/2022 at 11:11 AM, taylor made said:

Hindsight is 20/20 but the team could have landed some interesting combinations that I think would have been better than what they did. Tell me our offense wouldn’t have been scarier in the now with that second combination of draft picks. 

No trade down: R1: DT Jordan Davis, Georgia, R2 Alec Pierce, Georgia R4: Isaiah Spiller, RB Texas A&M R5: WR Khalil Shakir, Boise St. . 

Trade Down: R1: WR Treylon Burks, Arkansas R2: WR Skyy Moore, Western Michgan R3: TE Jeremy Ruckert, Ohio St. R4: RB Isaiah Spiller, Texas A&M 

Oh well, what do I know? Sincerely, A checked out fan. 

I do hindsight all the time and it makes it tough because a) we know ahead of time how it unfolds and b) how the draft could change because of our actions. That said, I don't like how you doubled up on WR in both drafts early. I would have been pretty upset with that. I actually think Turner is better than Ruckert. Spiller and Robinson might be a wash. 

[MKnight82]

It’s too soon to grade this draft but it looks like they pivoted to guys who can contribute immediately in this draft.  I don’t think that’s completely awful on Year 3 of a rebuild but you don’t want to make a habit of it.

Edited June 13, 2022 by MKnight82

[e16bball]

1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

It’s too soon to grade this draft but it looks like they pivoted to guys who can contribute immediately in this draft.  I don’t think that’s completely awful on Year 3 of a rebuild but you don’t want to make a habit of it.

This was the move, for sure. Lower ceiling, higher floor, more likely to provide immediate impact than other similar options. 

As you said, it’s something you can live with from time to time, but it’s not really the optimal way to draft. You’ve got to bake some major athletic upside into your drafts, as that’s where you typically find your stars, and there’s just not a ton of that. All 3 of the top picks seem to be pretty close to finished products, which suggests something more like solid starter/rotation guy than possible superstar. I will admit that I’m pretty excited about what I’m hearing about Dotson, but until I see him on the field, I still have to retain my skepticism. There’s a fine line between Tyler Lockett and Cedrick Wilson, and most guys with that slight a build just don’t find themselves proving to be long-term stars. I think at the least he can be an awesome slot weapon — he has the game, but does he have the frame?

The one thing I’m not wavering on is that I just think it’s unforgivable what they’ve done at the DT position. Arguably the best/deepest group in the league, and now we’re praying Phidarian Mathis will be good enough to start by next season. That’s…real bad. And so very little of it was necessary. 

[MikeT14]

On 6/12/2022 at 6:00 AM, turtle28 said:

I at too soon for this post. Talk to me in three years about the 2021 & 2022 drafts.

As far as what I would’ve done this off-season, all of our ideas were well documented for months from last December till the draft.

1. I would’ve traded DaRon Payne in February to the Steelers or someone who needed a 3-4 NT that has the position flex to play as a 4-3 DT/5 tech & 3-tech as well for a 2nd round pick and a 5th or whatever.

Someone would have to offer that. Doesn't seem like that was the case. Someone else showed history doesn't support that either. 

On 6/12/2022 at 6:00 AM, turtle28 said:

2. I would’ve re-signed Settle to a contract worth $4 or $5 mil a year for 4 years. 

Yes. 

On 6/12/2022 at 6:00 AM, turtle28 said:

3. I would’ve kept Collins & Ioannidis but restructured their contracts.

I'm good with both gone, but that would assume your #2 happened. 

On 6/12/2022 at 6:00 AM, turtle28 said:

4. I wouldn’t have traded for Wentz, but I don’t hate the move either bc he does still have tremendous upside. If he just makes the layups more as Chris Ballard said, we could have ourselves a top 10ish QB again for the first time since 2015-2017 when we had Kirk.

I wouldn't have either, but I also don't think anyone else wanted to play for us. It was a panic move. 

On 6/12/2022 at 6:00 AM, turtle28 said:

5. I would’ve signed Mitch Trubisky to compete w/ Heinicke to be our starter & of course still drafted one of my favorite QBs in the draft Sam Howell who at worst will be a good back up for years. At worst he has a Chase Daniel/Colt McCoy type career as a back up. At best he develops into a Baker Mayfield middle of the pack starter.

Gross to the bolded. 

On 6/12/2022 at 6:00 AM, turtle28 said:

6. I would’ve signed Kyle Fuller to compete w/ BSJ to be our #3 CB and I would (we still may) sign Anthony Barr to be our starting SLB & situational pass rusher moving Chase to rush over guards at times on 3rd & Long.

I wanted Fuller to come in and compete too. Barr would have been nice too. 

 

[turtle28]

@MikeT14 The reason I was on with signing Trubisky, Bridgewater or a Mariota type QB is because next years draft is a better QB draft class. So having them or Heinicke starting this year it would’ve set ourselves up better for that, even if we had to trade up for Bryce Young or Stroud.

Anthony Barr is still a free agent so, we could sign him. I read he has a knee problem so perhaps that’s why he’s still a free agent. As crazy as it sounds once again, Rivera seems content with the current LB group. I’m quite shocked we haven’t at least signed an AJ Klein type to be a veteran mentor for Holcomb & Jamin in this defense. It just boggles my mind that we haven’t done more to improve our LB corps for the 3rd year in a row. 🤷‍♂️
 

I sure hope Jamin takes a big jump as our WLB and he can be a 3 down LB along with Holcomb but it’s definitely a major question mark. We do play 5 DBs like 60-70% of the game but still, our depth is lacking and our experience for the young Lbs like Holcomb, Jamin and Hudson to help develop them.

Edited June 17, 2022 by turtle28

[MikeT14]

9 hours ago, turtle28 said:

@MikeT14 The reason I was on with signing Trubisky, Bridgewater or a Mariota type QB is because next years draft is a better QB draft class. So, I would’ve set ourselves up better for that, event if we had to trade up for Bryce Young or Stroud.

If that's your goal, just play TH. The fans would be more receptive to it.