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Pleasure in Pain


MOSteelers56

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Is my title too suggestive? Who’s to say? Oh yeah, it’s me. I’m going to let it slide this time. As long as none of you report me to the real Mods. 
 

Anyway, I thought we could collectively enjoy a horrible trip down memory lane and recall Sean Mahan. I actually haven’t read this article. I was browsing SD and just seeing his name made me groan. I thought I’d give you all a chance to get some of that feeling too. 
 

https://steelersdepot.com/2022/06/kevin-colberts-worst-free-agent-signings-ol-sean-mahan/ 

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Ladarius Green always sticks out to me when I think of Colbert’s worst signings. That was a pretty big name for us to bring it at the time and he completely flopped. Had injury concerns coming in and nothing changed when he came here.

Edited by bigben07MVP
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6 hours ago, bigben07MVP said:

Ladarius Green always sticks out to me when I think of Colbert’s worst signings. That was a pretty big name for us to bring it at the time and he completely flopped. Had injury concerns coming in and nothing changed when he came here.

Green was a really rough one too. He flashed his tantalizing potential, whereas Mahan just sucked. Our offense would have been unstoppable if Green could have stayed healthy. 

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1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

Very little. Like a non-existent amount. 

It's funny because you really have no basis for making this claim, you just refuse to even entertain it because you don't want to. I think any reasonable person would note that there is at least potential that the new head coach who worked with the back-up signed to a large contract for three seasons had input on the decision. Perhaps even a large share of it. 

And this isn't some crackpot theory. People drew the connection at the time. Tomlin spent three seasons with the dude in Tampa. I'm pretty sure the GM asked Tomlin for his thoughts on him and the signing.

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54 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

new head coach who worked with the back-up

Define this further. I gotta pretty good feeling that I gave it more thought than you did. You just found a spot to blame Tomlin and stopped asking questions because that fits your narrative on everything. 

Tomlin was the defensive backs coach during his time in Tampa. Did they get their checks signed by the same person? Yes, and that's also the end of the connection. This is the NFL, not high school football where your DB coach might also moonlight as your RB's coach. So just think through the interactions that coach might have with that position. How often do you think the DB's coach interacted with interior offensive lineman -- even just in terms of viewing them on tape or live at practice (both individuals and team sessions). You can see my first response for the answer. 

During Tomlin's stay as a DC for the Vikings, the Bucs and Minnesota never crossed paths, so we cant even sell the "game planning" angle. So for his time as a DC with a more all encompassing view of the offense they go against, we can once again refer back to my original response for how often he thought about Sean Mahan. 

That leads us to Kevin Colbert -- who had been a talent evaluator in the NFL for over 20 years at this point. He ran the football ops for 6 at the time for the Steelers. Tomlin wasn't even in the league when he started. So while Tomlin was entering his first year as a head coach, Colbert was entering his 7th functioning as the GM. So when we paint the entire picture -- I have no doubt Tomlin told them he thought Mahan was a "swell guy" and not a serial murder, but in terms of connecting the talent evaluation to that player -- you can once again see my previous post for what level of input Tomlin likely had there.  

And IF the 7th year GM and 20 year NFL evaluator looked at all the factors and took the first year HC with 6 years of NFL experience up on providing a talent evaluation before producing a 5 year contract -- do you know who that would be on? It's not Tomlin, because that would be a really dumb thing for a guy who should have known better to do. 

Theres plenty you can assign blame to Tomlin for. This ain't one of them. 

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I don't think your position is that well thought out at all. It basically implies that positional coaches live in some bubble focused solely on their positional groups, as if they don't have insights on the entire roster and aren't there for every practice from OTA's through to the final game of the season. You act as if a positional coach is only watching their group and ignoring the rest of the roster when scrubbing film, and that they have no other responsibilities or don't look for any insights beyond their guys. Hell, Tomlin may have been in the room when Mahan was drafted and pre-draft discussions and had insights into what the Bucs thought of him as a prospect. Then there's what we know of Tomlin - he's personable and likes to get to know the guys on the roster from top to bottom. You seem to think that's just something he started as a head coach. I'm fairly certain that yea - Tomlin who spent three years on the same team as the guy had some input on what he thought of Mahan's fit in the locker room and his abilities as a football player.

Frankly, the rest of your argument is more offensive to Tomlin than anything I'm implying about him whiffing on a FA signing. It's the irony of all ironies that in often times when people try to defend Tomlin from any and all criticism, that they basically make the argument that the guy is a ******* potted plant who does next to nothing. The defensive play calls weren't his fault, that was Butler. Heard that one for years, only for it to be confirmed Tomlin was making the defensive calls. Tomlin is a defensive guy, we can't blame him for really dumb situational playcalls at key moments in the game...even though Tomlin admits publicly that every offensive call goes through him, especially those critical possession downs and redzone plays..so on and so on...

You are basically implying that Tomlin was hired and given no input on the roster, that he was just taking a backseat to colbert. This was the guy the Steelers picked to be their third head coach in three generations. Yea, he was young. Yea, I'm sure colbert had more sway than he did under cowher. But the notion that the team didn't even ask for his input on signing a FA center from his former team that he spent three seasons with is, frankly, asinine. You make it out like Tomlin was hired to the ball boy and just sat in the corner taking notes from colbert. It's nonsense. 

None of this is to say that colbert is absolved of responsibility for the godawful signing of Mahan. He signed off on it and I'm certain he scouted him thoroughly before signing him. But yea - the argument that Tomlin had no involvement doesn't pass the sniff test. 

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I think you both make some valid points to your sides of the debate. I will always refer to the saying that talent evaluation is an art and not an exact science. As much as we love to crunch numbers, get guys who fit into metrics, look at stats, etc., a lot is still all about your gut and or who you like. Sometimes you hit a homer and sometimes you whiff. Sometimes it is scheme or what team drafts a player and sometimes it is the player itself. 

We were still Smash mouth Blitzburg during the time Mahan was here. He was never that type of OL. They were trying to put some pieces in place to help protect Big Ben better.  The thought was that the lighter and more agile Mahan would fit that narrative after losing a great center like Jeff Hartings.  It didn't work out. It is a team effort and as far as the poop signing of Mahan, everyone involved has to take a bite of the sandwich. Does it really matter who takes the bigger bite eating poop!  Everyone from ownership who signs off on it, to the  GM who approved it, to the scouting department who scouted and evaluated him and his game film, to the HC who may have endorsed him and said that he wants him on his roster, take a bite!  You share the victories and defeats. 

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10 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

It basically implies that positional coaches live in some bubble focused solely on their positional groups, as if they don't have insights on the entire roster and aren't there for every practice from OTA's through to the final game of the season. You act as if a positional coach is only watching their group and ignoring the rest of the roster when scrubbing film, and that they have no other responsibilities or don't look for any insights beyond their guys

Yes. Dear god, yes. Coaches in the NFL are working 80+ hour days and they are promoted based on their positional success. They have limited practice time as it is, so why would they spend it focusing on groups that are not theirs? Theres plenty of articles you can read on the subject. 

There is a transitive property that works with a DB's coach understanding the LB's and DL assignments and structure. But find me the correlation between DB and IOL. There isn't one. Those two groups do not connect. DB coaches are not wasting their time watching OL film of their own team for fun -- they don't have the time or the bandwidth to take that on. I have no doubt Tomlin knew who Sean Mahan was....but I highly doubt he could speak to his talent evaluation. 

It's far, and I mean far more likely KC went to Tomlin with "we are looking at Sean Mahan, anything we need to know?" rather than Tomlin knocking on KC's door saying "I got our Center!". 

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