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Cavaliers Thread: We Don’t Suck Again!


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5 hours ago, buno67 said:

$105.5m? Where are you getting that number from? Pretty Damn gilbert used $115m of his/team money towards the $185m project and the City only paid $70m. 

Also a lot of the tax dollars come from tickets sold and tax on items bought while at the Q/Field house. The city just received a larger payout from the Sales in the building compared to before.  Hotel tax, which to me isn’t that big of a deal because the affects the outsiders more. The people are prolly coming in for something that is due to part of the arena. 

Additional money from the city came from a left over fund from the restoration of the Hilton and Convention center. 

It’s not like Gilbert scammed the city into building him a brand new arena. Dude paid more than the city, when was the last time you saw an owner of any of the major 3 sports teams do that?

lets be honest the arena needed a face lift. 

 

We all can criticize dan. He deserves it but his spending was huge. They weren’t winning a title if they didn’t have TT and JR. He played a part

Your post is filled with naivete regarding Dan Gilbert's ruthlessness and shrewdness in both the Detroit and Cleveland economic and political machine, as well as how owners use public subsidy to laugh all the way to the bank.

But more specifically to the Cleveland context, the public was strongly against publicly subsidizing the Arena renovations based on the opportunity cost of that 105.5 Millioin dollars (yes, $105.5 Million is that actually number based on the total cost to the public including interest (https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/05/how_the_cavs_quicken_loans_ren.html

... the public being against it because of the opportunity cost of that 105.5 M could've been used on programs to to revitalize public health, the rotting schools and neighborhoods, the lead crisis in Cleveland schools and city soil, the lack of funding in the public school system in terms of building quality (mold), and other key community commitments.

Dan Gilbert paid tons of money to lobby and threw his weight around threatening the political machine to get City Council to reject the public's organized wishes to not subsidize the renovations. Anyone doing any analysis on the renovations knows that the financial commitment from the Cavaliers in the current renovation as well as the forthcoming major financial from "renovations of arena/stadium, as well as the downtown and areas near the stadiums/arena" is made back immediately via construction, real-estate, industrial materials, and land deals many times over.

Much research has been done regarding the known, hidden, and opportunity costs of stadium/arena subsidies https://medium.com/concentrated-benefits/the-hidden-costs-of-stadium-subsidies-fbc079f335f3and it would be wise not to cast Owners like Dan Gilbert as do-gooders deserving praise for their deeds for a wide-variety of reasons.

The key dimensions to evaluate Dan Gilbert aren't him giving the green light following through on his commitment to spend that was promised when he, rich paul, and Lebron spoke during the free agency meeting and Lebron holding him to it via signing 1-year deals and David Griffin and co working through a sh*t storm of ownership meddling. It's about evaluating the things that the respected beat writers or anyone paying attention would tell you he did to torpedo everything once again.

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4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Your post is filled with naivete regarding Dan Gilbert's ruthlessness and shrewdness in both the Detroit and Cleveland economic and political machine, as well as how owners use public subsidy to laugh all the way to the bank.

But more specifically to the Cleveland context, the public was strongly against publicly subsidizing the Arena renovations based on the opportunity cost of that 105.5 Millioin dollars (yes, $105.5 Million is that actually number based on the total cost to the public including interest (https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/05/how_the_cavs_quicken_loans_ren.html

... the public being against it because of the opportunity cost of that 105.5 M could've been used on programs to to revitalize public health, the rotting schools and neighborhoods, the lead crisis in Cleveland schools and city soil, the lack of funding in the public school system in terms of building quality (mold), and other key community commitments.

Dan Gilbert paid tons of money to lobby and threw his weight around threatening the political machine to get City Council to reject the public's organized wishes to not subsidize the renovations. Anyone doing any analysis on the renovations knows that the financial commitment from the Cavaliers in the current renovation as well as the forthcoming major financial from "renovations of arena/stadium, as well as the downtown and areas near the stadiums/arena" is made back immediately via construction, real-estate, industrial materials, and land deals many times over.

Much research has been done regarding the known, hidden, and opportunity costs of stadium/arena subsidies https://medium.com/concentrated-benefits/the-hidden-costs-of-stadium-subsidies-fbc079f335f3and it would be wise not to cast Owners like Dan Gilbert as do-gooders deserving praise for their deeds for a wide-variety of reasons.

The key dimensions to evaluate Dan Gilbert aren't him giving the green light following through on his commitment to spend that was promised when he, rich paul, and Lebron spoke during the free agency meeting and Lebron holding him to it via signing 1-year deals and David Griffin and co working through a sh*t storm of ownership meddling. It's about evaluating the things that the respected beat writers or anyone paying attention would tell you he did to torpedo everything once again.

giphy.gif 

Condescending as hell as per usual, but a great post either way. 😂 

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18 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Your post is filled with naivete regarding Dan Gilbert's ruthlessness and shrewdness in both the Detroit and Cleveland economic and political machine, as well as how owners use public subsidy to laugh all the way to the bank.

But more specifically to the Cleveland context, the public was strongly against publicly subsidizing the Arena renovations based on the opportunity cost of that 105.5 Millioin dollars (yes, $105.5 Million is that actually number based on the total cost to the public including interest (https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/05/how_the_cavs_quicken_loans_ren.html

... the public being against it because of the opportunity cost of that 105.5 M could've been used on programs to to revitalize public health, the rotting schools and neighborhoods, the lead crisis in Cleveland schools and city soil, the lack of funding in the public school system in terms of building quality (mold), and other key community commitments.

Dan Gilbert paid tons of money to lobby and threw his weight around threatening the political machine to get City Council to reject the public's organized wishes to not subsidize the renovations. Anyone doing any analysis on the renovations knows that the financial commitment from the Cavaliers in the current renovation as well as the forthcoming major financial from "renovations of arena/stadium, as well as the downtown and areas near the stadiums/arena" is made back immediately via construction, real-estate, industrial materials, and land deals many times over.

Much research has been done regarding the known, hidden, and opportunity costs of stadium/arena subsidies https://medium.com/concentrated-benefits/the-hidden-costs-of-stadium-subsidies-fbc079f335f3and it would be wise not to cast Owners like Dan Gilbert as do-gooders deserving praise for their deeds for a wide-variety of reasons.

The key dimensions to evaluate Dan Gilbert aren't him giving the green light following through on his commitment to spend that was promised when he, rich paul, and Lebron spoke during the free agency meeting and Lebron holding him to it via signing 1-year deals and David Griffin and co working through a sh*t storm of ownership meddling. It's about evaluating the things that the respected beat writers or anyone paying attention would tell you he did to torpedo everything once again.

All good points on how the city could allocate funding to different areas but I believe that the money from the ticket taxes, sales taxes, and the hotel taxes can’t go to places like the school system. Schools are funded by the state. Hence why when schools have money issues the state steps in they deal with it. They suck at it but they deal with. The state of Ohio handles funding of schools in such a stupid way of mainly relying on property taxes to funds schools. That’s why big city schools in Ohio tend to struggle and the rich suburbs tend to have the great schools systems. Also it’s why the I Promise school caught heat because that school used a lot of the allotted funding for the Akron public school system for just one building. 

Where I grew up, we had an amazing school system because a power plant was just built, so the district receive  huge amounts of money because of the property tax they were paying. Once that power plant shuts down that school distinct is going to struggle cause they won’t have the Funding to properly operate at 100%. 

Schools shouldn’t need levies to survive and operate

what do you do? Do you invest the $105( sorry I didn’t look at the post interest number) into the already established structure? Or do you run the risk of having to build a brand new stadium somewhere else and fronting an even bigger money amount and then leave a huge open space sitting there making no money or risk losing the Cavs cause they relocate to a city willing to build them a new arena. 

If we are going to truly look at the opportunity cost of this, we have to look at every alternative. Cavs leaving would be a big alternative. They leave, there not pulling in another nba franchise. They are not going to upkeep the arena for events. That space in downtown Cleveland turns into nothing. Now events they were coming in during the offseason or road trips aren’t coming to town. The Wolf isn’t going to pull concerts and Event like the Q was doing. 

Also if you look at other cities. The cost for the city was friendly. 

Phoenix is paying  $150m towards there renovations. That is with out interest

Minnesota had to pay around $75m for theirs. That is without interest. 

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