Cavaliers Thread: We Somehow Both Don't and Do Suck

[Mind Character]

4 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Where are you getting this?

I feel like there’s you and some former AAU coaches/high school coaches (who likely stand to benefit from his success) saying this.   Everyone else (the “public”) has a different view, but we’re clearly wrong in your eyes.

Just wondering what info think you have that the masses don’t that allows you to assert this as a fact? I’m not even saying you’re wrong and others are right, just not sure why you seem so confident about something I’m guessing you have no first hand experience with?

In your scenario above I’m not sure why we even trade down from 5 tbh.

Specifically, I've formed my constructed opinion on the nature of Reddish's work ethic based on my perception of truthfulness being in the comments I've read or heard from RJ Barrett, Tre Jones, Zion, Duke Associate head coach Nate James, 2 long-standing Duke basketball beat-writers, Mike Krzyzewski. an assistant strength and conditioning coach, his high school coach and AAU coach, and the Duke athletic trainer responsible for overseeing Reddish's knee rehab.

They have all commented favorably (and some in nuanced ways) about the nature of Cam's work ethic and commitment to the game. He's known to work on his game and get to the gym before anyone else along with teammate Tre Jones and stay late. Some have even added the contextual story of how his work ethic has evolved as he used to be a perfectionist that would shut down mentally in disappointment when he didn't meet his standard therefore hindering himself and hurting his team his freshman year in high school. He then grew out of that and lived by the phrase that he would come to internalize from Coach K which is "trust your work."

So, why did he struggle this year? If he works and he has such amazing talent, why at 19 years old did he not excel abundantly?

There's a lot of reasons--some Reddish was responsible for (i.e., poor shot selection 3 long 2pt FGAs a game along with 8 of his 12 shots a game being 3pts; willingness to just be a 3pt spacer without movement, hero ball hunting, etc) some he wasn't responsible for (i.e., offensive structure-wise his role saw him touch the ball 4th most and was used as a floor spacer so RJ Barrett could pound the ball and iso, Zion could iso or work in the post without the fear of Reddish's man collapsing in on him with Tre Jones being the primary ball handler and facilitator of the offense).and some that occur as a natural outgrowth of youthful development (i.e., 19 years old trying to grow his game as a role player amongst multiple ball dominant stars).

We live in a World where the masses happily march to the beat of false perceived certainties, untruths, and distortions of reality.  I am subject to the same thought illusions as the next person, but it just takes a little research to get a more complete, contextual, layered approximation of truth. Nothing is ever certain.

If we were to say, where are the :everyone else" as you say getting info on Reddish not having a good work ethic?... the answer would be 3 fold: 1.) Personal observation and inference coming from the experience of seeing the amazing raw talent of Reddish while at the same time seeing struggles and negative outcomes on the court leading to the inference that the negative outcomes have to be "self-inflicted" or due to work ethic, and 2.) The nameless/sourceless rumor mill that begins to try to attribute Reddish's struggles to something without taking the time to look into any context of how Reddish was used or what his motivations in the game are yielding things like "I don't know who said it, but there's questions about his how engaged and hard he works," 

I be glad to change my opinion if presented with some substantial evidence about Reddish not working hard or not caring. I've looked but haven't seen it. I'd be glad to update the info I've read on him.

Again, Reddish is not a home run pick. It wouldn't be cause for celebration. It would however be imo the gamble with biggest payoff amongst other gamble options and one to be cautiously optimistic about given the player development staff and coaches we have on our team (assuming they sustain competence in that regard).

Edited June 10, 2019 by Mind Character

[Mind Character]

With my belief in Culver and Hunter's special impact fading, our options are clear in my mind: Trade down get more opportunities to gamble and take the safest, high floor player in Coby White -OR- more preferably Trade down and take the inconsistent, biggest boom, highest ceiling uber talent player in Cam Reddish.

The only 3rd option that makes sense is to trade down much farther down in the draft and take an all around fit player with Collin Sexton like a Romeo Langford.

I prefer the Trade down a lot select Romeo Langford option to all those options relative to taking Hunter or Culver or even Reddish or White.

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Mind Character

[Mind Character]

Great, sobering, and concise summary of strengths and weaknesses of the draft prospects. Glaring Weaknesses with all the prospects we'll be able to take. Who do we gamble on? My last thought and what I'm sticking with until the draft is trade down multiple times out of the top 10, accumulate a ton of draft picks and take Romeo Langford, SG Indiana; followed by staying put and taking Hunter.

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Mind Character

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

Specifically, I've formed my constructed opinion on the nature of Reddish's work ethic based on my perception of truthfulness being in the comments I've read or heard from RJ Barrett, Tre Jones, Zion, Duke Associate head coach Nate James, 2 long-standing Duke basketball beat-writers, Mike Krzyzewski. an assistant strength and conditioning coach, his high school coach and AAU coach, and the Duke athletic trainer responsible for overseeing Reddish's knee rehab.

They have all commented favorably (and some in nuanced ways) about the nature of Cam's work ethic and commitment to the game. He's known to work on his game and get to the gym before anyone else along with teammate Tre Jones and stay late. Some have even added the contextual story of how his work ethic has evolved as he used to be a perfectionist that would shut down mentally in disappointment when he didn't meet his standard therefore hindering himself and hurting his team his freshman year in high school. He then grew out of that and lived by the phrase that he would come to internalize from Coach K which is "trust your work."

So, why did he struggle this year? If he works and he has such amazing talent, why at 19 years old did he not excel abundantly?

There's a lot of reasons--some Reddish was responsible for (i.e., poor shot selection 3 long 2pt FGAs a game along with 8 of his 12 shots a game being 3pts; willingness to just be a 3pt spacer without movement, hero ball hunting, etc) some he wasn't responsible for (i.e., offensive structure-wise his role saw him touch the ball 4th most and was used as a floor spacer so RJ Barrett could pound the ball and iso, Zion could iso or work in the post without the fear of Reddish's man collapsing in on him with Tre Jones being the primary ball handler and facilitator of the offense).and some that occur as a natural outgrowth of youthful development (i.e., 19 years old trying to grow his game as a role player amongst multiple ball dominant stars).

We live in a World where the masses happily march to the beat of false perceived certainties, untruths, and distortions of reality.  I am subject to the same thought illusions as the next person, but it just takes a little research to get a more complete, contextual, layered approximation of truth. Nothing is ever certain.

If we were to say, where are the :everyone else" as you say getting info on Reddish not having a good work ethic?... the answer would be 3 fold: 1.) Personal observation and inference coming from the experience of seeing the amazing raw talent of Reddish while at the same time seeing struggles and negative outcomes on the court leading to the inference that the negative outcomes have to be "self-inflicted" or due to work ethic, and 2.) The nameless/sourceless rumor mill that begins to try to attribute Reddish's struggles to something without taking the time to look into any context of how Reddish was used or what his motivations in the game are yielding things like "I don't know who said it, but there's questions about his how engaged and hard he works," 

I be glad to change my opinion if presented with some substantial evidence about Reddish not working hard or not caring. I've looked but haven't seen it. I'd be glad to update the info I've read on him.

Again, Reddish is not a home run pick. It wouldn't be cause for celebration. It would however be imo the gamble with biggest payoff amongst other gamble options and one to be cautiously optimistic about given the player development staff and coaches we have on our team (assuming they sustain competence in that regard).

 

[buno67]

5 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

@buno67 have you ever considered the possibility that JB won’t be an incredible coach capable of developing everyone?

Just a thought....

Am I asking him to develop everyone or just the #5 overall pick and the top rookie his first NBA roster and what will be prolly be the most athletically gifted player on the team?

Did I say he has to develop the guy into an all nba player that we select at #26. Or potentially the rookie they get if they buy a 2nd pick or make a trade and acquire more picks or another late rd first  

Also if you are not bring JB in to develop players, then why are you hiring a 66 year old rookie NBA HC?

if that’s the case than the Cavs completely bombed this coaching hire.

dude better be able to develop the player they draft at #5

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

4 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Am I asking him to develop everyone or just the #5 overall pick and the top rookie his first NBA roster and what will be prolly be the most athletically gifted player on the team?

Did I say he has to develop the guy into an all nba player that we select at #26. Or potentially the rookie they get if they buy a 2nd pick or make a trade and acquire more picks or another late rd first  

Also if you are not bring JB in to develop players, then why are you hiring a 66 year old rookie NBA HC?

if that’s the case than the Cavs completely bombed this coaching hire.

dude better be able to develop the player they draft at #5

And if he failed, would he be the first to do so?

You seem to be completely unaware that some hires don’t work out as intended....

[buno67]

5 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Sexton changed his game??

“Prior to the All-Star break, Sexton was averaging 5.4 mid-range shots while taking just 2.7 3-pointers. He was shooting 38 percent from the mid-range while shooting 39.7 percent from beyond the arc. In the 14 games since the All-Star break, Sexton is only attempting 1.6 mid-range shots while his 3-point attempts have skyrocketed to 5.6.”

”The change in approach has led to a much more efficient player. Before the All-Star break, Sexton’s effective field goal percentage was 44.6. Since then it’s 56.5.”

“While mid-range shots are often relatively open (because they're inefficient), Sexton was taking a ton of them. He was one of five players in the NBA to average 3.5 or more shots from 16-24 feet away ... Sexton righted the ship. Despite that high number of long mid-range shots in the early-going, Sexton averaged just 1.3 jumpers from 16-24 feet after January 15th.”

 

Sexton greatly changed up his offensive game. Dude was obsessed with the Mid range jumper early on in the season. Then he changed it to shot the 3. That big of a difference was coached into him. Not something that just naturally happen. With how inefficient and ineffective it was teams would give him that shot all day long. 

[buno67]

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

And if he failed, would he be the first to do so?

You seem to be completely unaware that some hires don’t work out as intended....

Now why would you think they would hire a basketball coach like JB? I would assume of his history or working with 18-24 year basketball players and developing them. Why is it wrong for me to have that same expectations? 

Should it be the expectations to take the likes of Love and ride him to a miracle of a run to the 8th seed or should it be the expectations you brought him to further develop Sexton and develop the next lottery pick?

should I stopping being optimistic and assuming Monken will further develop the passing game and be prepared for him to refine the rushing attack instead?

Edited June 10, 2019 by buno67

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just now, buno67 said:

Now why would you think they would hire a basketball coach like JB? I would assume of his history or working with 18-24 year basketball players and developing them. Why is it wrong for me to have that same expectations? 

Idk, because he’s yet to develop a single player at the professional level?  

I mean, using your logic every college coach who’s ever had any success developing talent should do a great job with it at the pro level.  Not sure why every team hasn’t thought of this...

Just now, buno67 said:

Should it be the expectations to take the likes of Love and ride him to a miracle of a run to the 8th seed or should it be the expectations you brought him to further develop Sexton and develop the next lottery pick?

No you’re assumption as to why he was brought in is correct.

[sdrawkcab321]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

Now why would you think they would hire a basketball coach like JB? I would assume of his history or working with 18-24 year basketball players and developing them. Why is it wrong for me to have that same expectations? 

Should it be the expectations to take the likes of Love and ride him to a miracle of a run to the 8th seed or should it be the expectations you brought him to further develop Sexton and develop the next lottery pick?

should I stopping being optimistic and assuming Monken will further develop the passing game and be prepared for him to refine the rushing attack instead?

They hired him because his dad is in the front office.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

They hired him because his dad is in the front office.

He’s referring to John Beilein.

[sdrawkcab321]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

He’s referring to John Beilein.

Ahhhh. Well maybe jb shouldn’t be used to mention Beilein considering we have a coach who actually goes by jb. 

[AkronsWitness]

18 hours ago, NateDawg said:

My eyes sting every time I see Reddish being mocked here. 

Your telling me a physically gifted player who is extremely lazy with a bad work ethic that goes ghost for games at a time doesnt do it for you?

[candyman93]

Rooting for Toronto, God I remember how draining game 7 was.

[Mind Character]

2 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Your telling me a physically gifted player who is extremely lazy with a bad work ethic that goes ghost for games at a time doesnt do it for you?

what evidence are you basing your opinion that he has a bad work ethic and is lazy on?

Again,

9 hours ago, Mind Character said:

If we were to say, where are the :everyone else" as you say getting info on Reddish not having a good work ethic?... the answer would be 3 fold: 1.) Personal observation and inference coming from the experience of seeing the amazing raw talent of Reddish while at the same time seeing struggles and negative outcomes on the court leading to the inference that the negative outcomes have to be "self-inflicted" or due to work ethic, and 2.) The nameless/sourceless rumor mill that begins to try to attribute Reddish's struggles to something without taking the time to look into any context of how Reddish was used or what his motivations in the game are yielding things like "I don't know who said it, but there's questions about his how engaged and hard he works,"