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Cavaliers Thread: Embrace The Mediocrity

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9 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Strongly disagree. No point guard plays defense. He’s shown to the tools and potential to be average which is all you can ask for. His playmaking improved a lot the second half. He’s a stud offensively. He’s much better than a 6th man. 

If he had the tools to be an avg defender, the dude wouldnt be god awful. What tools does he have? Its not length. Its not elite speed or quickness, its not defensive mentality.

I wouldnt say he is an offensive stud. He cant draw fouls, cant run an offense, and cant set up teammates. Those are the things you want from your starting PG. He is this generation's Lou Williams at best.

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On 3/31/2020 at 1:00 PM, buno67 said:

If he had the tools to be an avg defender, the dude wouldnt be god awful. What tools does he have? Its not length. Its not elite speed or quickness, its not defensive mentality.

I wouldnt say he is an offensive stud. He cant draw fouls, cant run an offense, and cant set up teammates. Those are the things you want from your starting PG. He is this generation's Lou Williams at best.

Hes 6'1 with a 6'6 wingspan which by definition is length

He actually wants to play defense and is good in man to man style. IE him vs Terry Rosier in the Charlotte game we won at the end other examples are there.

Collin struggles in understanding team defense as of now. Everything with him on the mental aspect has been slower but he figures it out and does it well. 

If you watched every game you will see he has been running the offense pretty well since Jan and once DG was being rested and then injured he showed he can run the offense and set up teammates. He wont be Steve Nash or Steph Curry but I think hes shown flashes of being a decent to good at facilitating

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Sexton will ever be a + defender. He's not that kind of player.

 

I don't believe in defensive potential all that much. You either are a good defender or you're not. I can't think of any NBA player that was bad on defense and due to effort or technique, became great. You can go from bad to bleh, but I think it's a bit pie-in-the-sky to assume Sexton will eventually become a good NBA defensive player.

Edited by BleedTheClock

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Just now, BleedTheClock said:

I don't think Sexton will ever be a + defender. He's not that kind of player.

 

I don't believe in defensive potential all that much. You either are a good defender or you're not. I can't think of any NBA player that was bad on defense and due to effort or technique, became great. You can go from bad to bleh, but I think it's a bit pie-in-the-sky to assume Sexton will eventually become an elite NBA defensive player.

Jason Kidd is the model example. Curry was horrible his first few years then turned into a plus defender. 

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Just now, sdrawkcab321 said:

Jason Kidd is the model example. Curry was horrible his first few years then turned into a plus defender. 

I never watched young Jason Kidd.

 

And Curry is a + defender? I don't agree with that. He hustles, but he's not good at locking people down.

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Just now, BleedTheClock said:

I never watched young Jason Kidd.

 

And Curry is a + defender? I don't agree with that. He hustles, but he's not good at locking people down.

Jason Kidd was one of the worst defenders in the league until he went to the nets. I’m not saying curry is tony Allen but he’s above average for a PG. young curry was all time bad until he put on some size. 

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1 hour ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Jason Kidd is the model example. Curry was horrible his first few years then turned into a plus defender. 

 

1 hour ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Jason Kidd was one of the worst defenders in the league until he went to the nets. I’m not saying curry is tony Allen but he’s above average for a PG. young curry was all time bad until he put on some size. 

This.

Most elite defenders aren’t 21-23 years old, they’re established vets who understand both individual and team defense.

 

Saying “X 21 yo isn’t an elite defender and never will be” is naive as hell tbh. I mean, just look at the all defensive teams.  It’s 2nd and 3rd contract players.

Not saying Sexton will be an elite defender, but I feel comfortable saying he has the potential to defend his position well with experience.

 

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2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

 

This.

Most elite defenders aren’t 21-23 years old, they’re established vets who understand both individual and team defense.

 

Saying “X 21 yo isn’t an elite defender and never will be” is naive as hell tbh. I mean, just look at the all defensive teams.  It’s 2nd and 3rd contract players.

Not saying Sexton will be an elite defender, but I feel comfortable saying he has the potential to defend his position well with experience.

 

All these examples like Kidd and Curry as bad defenders and examples that a player can get better at defense but you look at their adv stats and compare them to Sexton. If Early Curry and Kidd were bad to one of the worst defenders in the league, than that makes Sexton one of the worst ever! Kid never had a negative DWS, neither did Curry. Looking at DPBM, another adv defense stat. Curry and Kidd never had a season with a DPBM more than -1.0. Collin has had -3.3 and -2.1. If we are calling Kid and Curry bad defenders, than Sexton is one of the worst NBA defenders off all time. 
 

I would be ecstatic if Sexton could turn into a serviceable defender but I don’t see it. Hell I would settle for slightly bad defender out of him but he is an absolutely awful defender.   

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9 hours ago, buno67 said:

All these examples like Kidd and Curry as bad defenders and examples that a player can get better at defense but you look at their adv stats and compare them to Sexton. If Early Curry and Kidd were bad to one of the worst defenders in the league, than that makes Sexton one of the worst ever! Kid never had a negative DWS, neither did Curry. Looking at DPBM, another adv defense stat. Curry and Kidd never had a season with a DPBM more than -1.0. Collin has had -3.3 and -2.1. If we are calling Kid and Curry bad defenders, than Sexton is one of the worst NBA defenders off all time. 
 

I would be ecstatic if Sexton could turn into a serviceable defender but I don’t see it. Hell I would settle for slightly bad defender out of him but he is an absolutely awful defender.   

I’m not saying he will or won’t be a good defender, I’m just saying writing him off at 20-21 makes no sense.

He has the physical skill set (length for the position, quickness, etc) to be a decent defender and seems to play with energy, so those pieces are there.  Right now he just looks clueless, which isn’t unexpected considering his age.

Most players in the NBA don’t peak until they’re 25-27, and even then many improve defensively from there.

Kids can come in and light it up, they can be highlight machines and fun to watch, but rarely does youth equate to either winning or defense.  Those things take YEARS, not just ability.

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I agree with @buno67. Do I want to get rid of Sexton because he isn't a polished passer (this can & will improve) or a good defensive player? Absolutely not.

 

But I still stand by my previous remarks: Absolutely nobody on this roster is safe.

My personal preference is to build a team with length and defensive prowess. That likely means getting rid of just about everyone, if I had my wish.

 

...but I will concede there are other ways to build a title contender rather than just building a defensive juggernaut. I just hate not having a defensive mentality on this team. We don't even have a single player that is a good defender.

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18 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

I agree with @buno67. Do I want to get rid of Sexton because he isn't a polished passer (this can & will improve) or a good defensive player? Absolutely not.

 

But I still stand by my previous remarks: Absolutely nobody on this roster is safe.

My personal preference is to build a team with length and defensive prowess. That likely means getting rid of just about everyone, if I had my wish.

 

...but I will concede there are other ways to build a title contender rather than just building a defensive juggernaut. I just hate not having a defensive mentality on this team. We don't even have a single player that is a good defender.

I think most of us are fine with moving anyone for the right deal.  There’s no clear superstar like a LeBron or Durant on this roster.

 

I also wish they’d do more to acquire wing players who understand and are able to play some defense. With small ball being as common as it is now, you can easily play 2-3 of those types big minutes.

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1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I think most of us are fine with moving anyone for the right deal.  There’s no clear superstar like a LeBron or Durant on this roster.

 

I also wish they’d do more to acquire wing players who understand and are able to play some defense. With small ball being as common as it is now, you can easily play 2-3 of those types big minutes.

I'd like a brand new set of SF's for this team next year.

 

1. Trade Kevin Love and Cedi Osman to Portland for Zach Collins (C) & Nassir Little (SG/SF)

2. Sign Josh Jackson (SF), Andre Roberson (SG), DeAnthony Melton (PG/SG), Nerlens Noel (PF/C) Stanley Johnson (SF)  as free agents.

3. Draft James Wiseman (C) #2 overall.

That would give us this roster before the draft & more trades:

 

PG: Darius Garland/Deanthony Melton/Dante Exum
SG: Collin Sexton/Kevin Porter/Andre Roberson
SF: Nassir Little/Josh Jackson/Stanley Johnson
PF: Larry Nance/Nerlens Noel/Dean Wade
C: Andre Drummond/James Wiseman/Marques Bolden

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1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

I'd like a brand new set of SF's for this team next year.

 

1. Trade Kevin Love and Cedi Osman to Portland for Zach Collins (C) & Nassir Little (SG/SF)

2. Sign Josh Jackson (SF), Andre Roberson (SG), DeAnthony Melton (PG/SG), Nerlens Noel (PF/C) Stanley Johnson (SF)  as free agents.

3. Draft James Wiseman (C) #2 overall.

That would give us this roster before the draft & more trades:

 

PG: Darius Garland/Deanthony Melton/Dante Exum
SG: Collin Sexton/Kevin Porter/Andre Roberson
SF: Nassir Little/Josh Jackson/Stanley Johnson
PF: Larry Nance/Nerlens Noel/Dean Wade
C: Andre Drummond/James Wiseman/Marques Bolden

RIP spacing 

 

Noel isn’t a PF by any means. This isn’t the 90s you don’t build around bigs. 

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15 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

RIP spacing 

 

Noel isn’t a PF by any means. This isn’t the 90s you don’t build around bigs. 

RIP giving up 120 ppg.

 

I'd rather lose 82-90 than 136-117.

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20 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

RIP giving up 120 ppg.

 

I'd rather lose 82-90 than 136-117.

You’d still give up 120 ppg. Bigs don’t have the defensive impact they once had. 

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