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Cavaliers Thread: We Don’t Suck Again!


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23 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Im basing it off of literally every single thing I have ever watched or read about the scouting profile of Reddish. Every single negative on Reddish you read across the internet is 'Does he really want to be a great NBA player?" or "Does he have the toughness to compete". He often shies away from contact and plays passive when hes not given open looks.

From what I have read, A LOT of scouting places out there paint him as a Anthony Bennett type of bust candidate if he doesnt catch lightning in a bottle. 

I can deal with a guy in the draft that has some things to work on, but overall effort and questions about his 'care' and toughness you cannot just work on. That worries me when it comes to a prospect.

 

Your reaching, other than maybe the does he want to be great quote non of the other indicate laziness or lack of effort. The point to lack of assertiveness

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I don’t wish injuries like that I anyone. Part of me (small part) would have been OK with him getting nicked up just for the series so that the Warriors would’ve known what it was like with what the Cavaliers went through. That’s potentially a career altering injury though. Over a sport that is meant for fan entertainment, it’s ridiculous to wish people serious injuries for the sake of fanhood. 

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3 hours ago, BrownsDog23 said:

Your reaching, other than maybe the does he want to be great quote non of the other indicate laziness or lack of effort. The point to lack of assertiveness

Yes and no. It seems to be the all around package.

"Not a physical player on either end of the floor. Effort level, focus and confidence fluctuate. but looks extremely passive on the floor and tends to blend in completely and rarely utilizes his physical gifts and seems to avoid contact around the basket ” --DraftExpress

"Deferred to teammates far too often. Competitiveness and toughness came into question during season....Determination and dedication need work ... Disappeared for long stretches in many games at Duke, lacking assertiveness ..." -- NBAdraft.net

Ill gladly eat crow if he becomes a monster but he just has waaaaaay more question marks in his game than other guys that can be available. He has a extremely high ceiling which is great, but its a big gamble if he ever reaches it. However, having Beilein might work really well for him so I wouldnt be too upset.

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9 hours ago, NateDawg said:

I don’t wish injuries like that I anyone. Part of me (small part) would have been OK with him getting nicked up just for the series so that the Warriors would’ve known what it was like with what the Cavaliers went through. That’s potentially a career altering injury though. Over a sport that is meant for fan entertainment, it’s ridiculous to wish people serious injuries for the sake of fanhood. 

I'll admit it, when I saw him hobble, I started smirking. I was thinking/hoping that he just pulled his calf and would be out the rest of the series. When I saw him stay down/the replay of his entire calf muscle contract/disappear, I knew it was bad and felt bad for him.

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On 6/10/2019 at 9:24 PM, AkronsWitness said:

Im basing it off of literally every single thing I have ever watched or read about the scouting profile of Reddish. Every single negative on Reddish you read across the internet is 'Does he really want to be a great NBA player?" or "Does he have the toughness to compete". He often shies away from contact and plays passive when hes not given open looks.

From what I have read, A LOT of scouting places out there paint him as a Anthony Bennett type of bust candidate if he doesnt catch lightning in a bottle. 

I can deal with a guy in the draft that has some things to work on, but overall effort and questions about his 'care' and toughness you cannot just work on. That worries me when it comes to a prospect.

 

14 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Yes and no. It seems to be the all around package.

"Not a physical player on either end of the floor. Effort level, focus and confidence fluctuate. but looks extremely passive on the floor and tends to blend in completely and rarely utilizes his physical gifts and seems to avoid contact around the basket ” --DraftExpress

"Deferred to teammates far too often. Competitiveness and toughness came into question during season....Determination and dedication need work ... Disappeared for long stretches in many games at Duke, lacking assertiveness ..." -- NBAdraft.net

Ill gladly eat crow if he becomes a monster but he just has waaaaaay more question marks in his game than other guys that can be available. He has a extremely high ceiling which is great, but its a big gamble if he ever reaches it. However, having Beilein might work really well for him so I wouldnt be too upset.

Again, Reddish has issues, is far from a home run prospect, and is a big payoff gamble amongst other gambles, but I think you're mixing up some critical things in his assessment.

A few things:

1.) You have to be careful trusting whatever you read on the internet without assessing how reliable the sourcing and opinion is, as well as limiting the sampling of opinions to a small and not deep analysis subset of opinions. For example, while I have gone to nbadraft.net for over a decade it's important to know that profiles like the one you quoted are written and submitted by users and/or the sites valued bloggers as those writing up that profile (William Desautelle and Tomes) aren't scouts or coaches nor have inside knowledge in the program or anything. Jonathan Givony and the DraftExpress content writers have been more tuned in over the years, but even their assessment speaks more to his assertiveness not his work ethic. 

2.) You repeatedly keep mixing up and confusing "Work Ethic" and "Assertiveness" in your opinion. I haven't found one (and I've looked" reliable source to speak negatively about Reddish's "work ethic," instead multiple people ranging from teammates to coaches from high school to college all rave about his work ethic. Name me one reputable source questioning work ethic with examples. From his high school teammates, coaches and strength staff saying that Reddish was in the gym everyday at 5:45am to work on his game so often for his routine that if he wasn't there by 6:15am they'd fear something happened to him (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2766532-duke-recruit-cam-reddish-is-going-to-be-a-star-but-not-the-kind-youre-used-to "If I didn't hear anything by 6:15," Tulleners said, "I knew something was wrong." For at least an hour before class each day during the school year, Reddish would hoist shot after shot while listening to rap music on his earphones. He'd repeat the routine during breaks in the afternoon and again at night. "You're not going to have to beg to get Cam into a practice facility," Tulleners said. "You're going to have to beg him to get out.").

You can readily find various other articles with depth sourcing those that would really know about Reddish's work ethic and find takes that go beyond just defending Cam out of self interest or the need to lie including Duke teammates, high school teammates, high school coaches and athletic trainers, college coaches and athletic trainers, etc (1.) https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/6/4/18635931/cam-reddish-nba-draft-2019-duke-scouting-report-stats-high-school-recruiting; 2.) https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2823969-dukes-cam-reddish-a-beautiful-player-battling-an-ugly-reputation ; 3.) https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2766532-duke-recruit-cam-reddish-is-going-to-be-a-star-but-not-the-kind-youre-used-to ; 4.) https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2019/05/16/cam-reddish-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-duke-nba-draft-combine/3698536002/

Now, Assertiveness? Indeed, he struggled but remember the context in that he was 4th on the team in touch time as RJ Barrett dribbled the air out the ball in isos and late game, Tre Jones the PG was second, followed by Zion Williamson in usage and touch time. Reddish was relegated to the role of 4th touch option spot up shooter and late shot clock kick out creator. In that role, he was inconsistent and struggled given his being used to being the primary ball handler.

Ultimately, what happens is people try to answer the question, "If Reddish has all that amazing talent, then why did he struggle and have such a hard time this year." Given his laid back personality people come up with lazy explanations that don't require a lot of thought like, "He must not love the game and not work at it," when there are various other explanations for why he struggled some that were his fault (i.e., settled with his role instead of being assertive a lot) and others (i.e., structurally was given the role as 3pt shooter and spacer as he was 4th in touches and usage behind Barrett, Jones, and Zion).

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In the end, Reddish may fail for a wide variety of reasons and has many issues as a prospect. He does however work at his game. The question then is in 3-5 years of work and development will he be a better NBA player and gamble compared to others like Jarrett Culver, Coby White, etc??

Only time will tell, but there is an argument to be made that a trade down from 5, the collecting of more draft capital and with it the ability to take more swings at the draft selection plate, and taking Reddish (or some other player; I prefer Romeo Langford or Goga Bitadze) is a more desirable option than just taking the gamble on Jarrett Culver who's jumpshot is broken and has his issues or Coby White who has his issues.

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My Final Final Cavs-Centric Prospect Draft Rankings:

Tier I:

1.) Goga Bitadze, C Rep. of Georgia

2.) Coby White, CG North Carolina

3.) Darius Garland, PG Vanderbilt

4.) Romeo Langford, SG Indiana

Tier II:

5.) DeAndre Hunter, SF/CF Virginia

6.) Jarrett Culver, SG Texas Tech

7.) Cam Reddish, SG/SF Duke

8.) Sekou Doumbouya, SF/CF France

9.) Nassir Little, SF North Carolina

10.) Kevin Porter Jr., SG USC

11.) Nicolas Claxton, PF/C Georgia

12.)  Luguentz Dort, CG Arizona State 

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Despite playing an unfavorable position as the not amazingly athletically gifted C, Goga Bitadze is the best prospect in the draft as he has great 3pt touch, the ability to create his shot off the dribble, advanced passing instincts, and excellent shot blocking timing. He has Nikola Jokic type impact albeit to a lesser extent as a pure passer and creator for others with the elite size Jokic has. Goga is the best all around player in the draft.

No prospects film disappointed me more based purely on high expectations than Jarrett Culver. He has the size and defensive upside over fellow prospects Coby White and Romeo Langford, but in all other aspects they are the superior prospect gambles imo. The highest upside player the Cavs could select is Darius Garland or Cam Reddish with Garland being more complete and potent in skill right now while Reddish likely being 3 years or more away from manifesting his all around potential. Garland is terrible on defense but his offensive elite outside scoring skill is already all star worthy. When he drives his game falls apart. Coby White is likely the safest highest upside player in the draft to pair with Sexton despite White's defensive and length limitations. With Hunter not being able to be a perimeter shot create or create for others, Romeo Langford is the next best all around player to pair with Sexton as Langford has length on the defensive end and is an effective shot creator for himself and others from the perimeter. His plus athleticism could make him the steal of the draft.

All in all, watching this year's draft prospects tells me that we'd be crazy to not trade down.

My final options are to trade down and select a combination of Goga Bitadze and Coby White/Romeo Langford. I go back and forth on who I'd rather pair with Sexton be it White or Langford. Langford has the higher upside for sure in all areas of the game, but I'm certain that at worst White will be an elite 6th man and/or glue guy. I'm intrigued by Garland but ultimately he may not be a fit at all with our current roster. Nassir Little is certain to be an elite defender and given the uncertainty of the other prospects development, it may be worthwhile to take a gamble on him as a run the floor, havoc, motor, defensive stalwart glue guy if we acquire an additional 1st in trade down and Little falls in the teens.  That certain has value and a certain place on a young developing team.

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Final Final Cleveland Cavaliers Mock Off-Season & Draft III:

Trade 1 -- The Cleveland Cavaliers Trade the # 5 pick to the Atlanta Hawks for # 8, # 17, and #35

Trade 2 -- Cavs trade JR Smith and Ante Zizic to Portland for the # 25 overall pick, a future 2nd round pick, Evan Turner, and CG Anfernee Simons. Portland gets some immediate space and gets closer to being able to get below the tax and make a critical FA signing. Turner's contract joins the pile of contracts like that of Henson, Delly, Tristan, Clarkson, Knight that can be used the following season as expiring contracts exchanged with cap-space needy franchises' willing to give up 1st round picks.

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The Draft

1st Round:

5.) The Atlanta Hawks (via trade w/ CLE) select Jarrett Culver, SG Texas Tech.

8.) The Cleveland Cavaliers (via trade w/ ATL) select Coby White, SG North Carolina --OR-- Romeo Langford, SG Indiana.

17.) The Cleveland Cavaliers (via trade w/ ATL) select Goga Bitadze, C Rep. of Georgia.

25.) The Cleveland Cavaliers (via trade w/ PDX) select KZ Okpala, SG/SF Stanford

26.) The Cleveland Cavaliers (via trade w/ HOU) select Nicolas Claxton, PF/C Georgia 

2nd Round

35.) The Cleveland Cavaliers (via trade w/ ATL) select Deividas Sirvydis, Lithuania (to keep and develop overseas like Cedi Osman)

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Core Foundation Roster W/O Upcoming Expiring Contracts & Kevin Love:

PG/CG: Collin Sexton; Anfernee Simons

SG/CG: Coby White (OR Romeo Langford depending on who we draft)

SG/SF: Cedi Osman; KZ Okpala

PF/CF: Nicolas Claxton;

C: Goga Bitadze; Larry Nance Jr.;

Overseas Developmental Players:

SF: Deividas Sirvydis, Lithuania 

Edited by Mind Character
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13 minutes ago, buno67 said:

@Mind Character

I am almost certain that you can not combine trade exceptions or use them in a package trade. So you can’t combine them with picks or players. I don’t believe you JR Smith trade would work with that in mind 

You are correct you cannot combine a TE with a player. You can combine it with a pick but not a player. 

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1 hour ago, buno67 said:

@Mind Character

I am almost certain that you can not combine trade exceptions or use them in a package trade. So you can’t combine them with picks or players. I don’t believe you JR Smith trade would work with that in mind 

 

47 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

You are correct you cannot combine a TE with a player. You can combine it with a pick but not a player. 

Thanks. My mistake. I was wrong.

That means so long to Skal or whhoever in my hypothetical Blazers-JR trade scenario. Point is JR plus a salary filler (Ante Zizic) to make the trade work for Evan Turner, Anfernee Simons, and their 1st round pick  as a potential destination trade that yields us a pick and a young player with high upside in Simons if Portland and the Cavs would consider such a trade.

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