Training Camp 2022: Luh-trowb or Lay-trowb?

[warfelg]

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Totally agree that Kenny needs to take the position rather than have it handed to him. But if its remotely close, I'm giving it to Kenny. And IMO, it's going to be close. 

We took 24 year old, 5th year starter for a reason. If he needs a redshirt season, we made a mistake. 

I don’t think it’s a mistake if he needs a redshirt season, especially if redshirting him is more about getting accustomed to the NFL and a few tweaks. Throwing QBs to the fire has hurt more of them than it’s helped. Additionally Tomlin being solid in his position means he won’t feel the need to force Pickett if the time isn’t right. 
 

Personally I need Pickett to be hands down better to start week 1. 

[Dcash4]

5 hours ago, warfelg said:

I don’t think it’s a mistake if he needs a redshirt season, especially if redshirting him is more about getting accustomed to the NFL and a few tweaks. Throwing QBs to the fire has hurt more of them than it’s helped. Additionally Tomlin being solid in his position means he won’t feel the need to force Pickett if the time isn’t right. 
 

Personally I need Pickett to be hands down better to start week 1. 

Whole heartedly disagree on throwing QBs to the fire early hurting them. Way too many positive examples, especially in the modern NFL where the gap has been bridged from college to NFL concepts. Maybe we can say that for a guy like Darnold, but he was also widely considered NFL ready vs his own classmate, Josh Allen, who came in with giant holes. Josh played early and is now an MVP front runner. 

Situation matters a lot when it comes to young QBs. This is going to be a run first team centered around Najee, run action, RPOs, and playing top level defense. Tomlins a force as a HC. That’s the reason we are excited that Trubisky can be good enough, but that’s ALSO the prime entry for a rookie into the league. 

I don’t see what Mitch has over Kenny outside of NFL experience. But the only way to get that is actually to play. You can’t get better at playing QB holding a clipboard (er…tablet). Ever snap Kenny takes this year is a benefit to our future. Every snap Mitch takes is only relevant to the present. If it’s close, Kenny needs to get significant snaps.

[warfelg]

Patrick Mahomes? Dude sat a year and looked a lot like Kenny’s senior year. Lamar Jackson sat most a season before lighting it up. 
 

It’s so incredibly situationally based that saying Kenny should start if it’s close because he’s a rookie isn’t a great line to me. 
 

Let’s say the line looks like trash, no room to move, and WRs don’t live up to expectations. Would you rather have one year man Mitchell take the beating or turn Kenny into Darnold? If it’s close performance wise but many other parts are struggling, Kenny better make up for those struggling areas. No way I throw him to the wolves if the performance is gonna be the same. 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

Patrick Mahomes? Dude sat a year and looked a lot like Kenny’s senior year. Lamar Jackson sat most a season before lighting it up

Mahomes was 21 and a true junior when he was drafted, started 29 games for a one read, check with me air raid offense in a league that played no defense. He went to a team with an established starting QB who won 41 games during his 4 year tenure and made the playoffs 3 of 4 years. 

Lamar’s a great example of why you need to play dudes early. Thanks to knowing what they had, they fully committed to building on his strengths. A coach who was nearly fired doesn’t do that on a whim. They went 13-2 his second year and he was the league MVP. That doesn’t work I’d you are “feeling it out”. 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

It’s so incredibly situationally based that saying Kenny should start if it’s close because he’s a rookie isn’t a great line to me.

But committing time to a first year player on the team with no future outside of this year is a good line to you? 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

Let’s say the line looks like trash, no room to move, and WRs don’t live up to expectations. Would you rather have one year man Mitchell take the beating or turn Kenny into Darnold? If it’s close performance wise but many other parts are struggling, Kenny better make up for those struggling areas. No way I throw him to the wolves if the performance is gonna be the same. 

Yes, 10 outta 10 times in our situation. We have what equates to a brand new OC, with a brand new QB room, a brand new OL, and a receiving core we will need to make decisions on within the next year. Everything we do this year is an evaluation of what our future is. 

This isn’t some team Mitch had been running and you need to get Kenny up to speed…they are both at the same level of entry. 

You wanna get a good look at DJ this year because you want to determine if he is worth the tag/extension? Why the hell have him catch passes from a dude who won’t be on the team in 2023? 

Wanna figure out what you have at OC and if you need to make a change? Why not let him use the QB he had a hand in selecting to run his offense? 

If the team is bad and Kenny can’t lift anyone on it up — great, we have the makings of an answer in if Pickett is the long term solution at the most important position. Far too many examples of good quarterbacks being good regardless of playing games on year one. Daniel Jones isn’t good because Daniel Jones isn’t good - not because he needed a year and everything would have been better.

If Kenny is bad, then absolutely don’t play him because the development of others would be hindered by him. But if it’s close, there’s no reason to evaluate your team with a QB they won’t be moving forward with in Mitch. That doesn’t mean he needs to start week 1, but he needs significant time. And I don’t trust that Tomlin will replace “fine” at the position. 

[warfelg]

10 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

But committing time to a first year player on the team with no future outside of this year is a good line to you?

So being the week 1 starter is "committing"?

 

I've never once said Kenny couldn't take over at some point.  Just that Kenny needs to be heads and shoulders to start.  And there should be 0 issue with that. 
 

If it’s close in preseason, give Mitch the nod because he’s a vet. If he plays well….awesome. Redshirt Kenny because Mitch is playing well not because Kenny “needs” it. The point is becoming completely bastardized yet again. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by warfelg

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

So being the week 1 starter is "committing"?

If he plays week 1 you committed time to him, correct? I said a lot of words and this is what we are gonna nitpick?

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Just that Kenny needs to be heads and shoulders to start.  And there should be 0 issue with that.

The issue is that Mitch Trubisky isn't some rock solid player who demands to be started. When you say head and shoulder better, it seems like you either need Kenny to be Aaron Rodgers or you want to see Mitch fail in order to make a decision. That's just extremely unlikely to see any sort of big variance between the two, so you are going to need other factors to make a decision. 

When Kenny -- the future QB of this team -- is ready, he needs to start over Mitch Trubisky. 

[warfelg]

44 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

If he plays week 1 you committed time to him, correct? I said a lot of words and this is what we are gonna nitpick?

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

Absolutely because you are playing a semantics game to “win” a discussion. 
 

Time is going to be split in camp any way you cut it. Not committing time to a guy who won’t win (Rudolph) will open up time. But time is going to be committed to both guys no matter what. And Tomlin isn’t naming a starter now. 
 

If Kenny doesn’t flat out win it, that means he has things to work on. I rather not see them force him to work through it on the field and derail him. Put the Vet out there who, if he sinks, doesn’t derail your franchise from the start. 

[warfelg]

George Pickens rated a 73 in Madden. Highest was Jameson Williams at a 78.

[Dcash4]

Take your pick over the three game pre-season sample size:

Player A: Rookie, first round pick, 70% completion, 10.7 YPC, 1 TD
Player B: 10 year Vet, former first overall pick, 67% completion, 13 YPC, 1 TD, 1 INT

Choosing Cam Newton over Mac Jones is an odd choice. As is picking Tyrod over Herbert or Allen. Being a vet (and brand new to the team) shouldn't be a default solution.

Saying it could derail the franchise is an extreme viewpoint - and one you won't find many examples of. You said me clarifying how I meant a word was "semantics to win an argument", so I'm curious to know what that is...

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Take your pick over the three game pre-season sample size:

Player A: Rookie, first round pick, 70% completion, 10.7 YPC, 1 TD
Player B: 10 year Vet, former first overall pick, 67% completion, 13 YPC, 1 TD, 1 INT

Choosing Cam Newton over Mac Jones is an odd choice. As is picking Tyrod over Herbert or Allen. Being a vet (and brand new to the team) shouldn't be a default solution.

Saying it could derail the franchise is an extreme viewpoint - and one you won't find many examples of. You said me clarifying how I meant a word was "semantics to win an argument", so I'm curious to know what that is...

Got the context of the team around them?

 

Wont find example as of derailing a franchise? Hell. The Bears, Giants, Jets, Browns (for years) just off the top of my head without looking into it. 

[Dcash4]

19 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Wont find example as of derailing a franchise? Hell. The Bears, Giants, Jets, Browns (for years) just off the top of my head without looking into it. 

lol. So Trubisky (who we are now pumping), Daniel Jones, Sam Darnold, Quinn/Weeden/Manziel were all good quarterbacks who just needed one season to sit and were not just bad quarterbacks?

Speaking of context, we should probably ignore those have been some of the worst managed franchises within the last 20 years, right? Those franchises were not derailed because they took the wrong QB, they were derailed because they had awful people making decisions.

[warfelg]

Jesus Christ. I’m done with this place. 

[bigben07MVP]

Hate to be cliché but Tomlin is going to start who he thinks gives us the best chance to win, period. Everything else is just noise.

Like it or not, Trubisky is getting the first crack at being the starter. Pickett will have to prove he gives us a better chance to win than Trubisky. Tomlin isn’t going to have a pre-determined week for Pickett to be the starter, or throw him in just for experience like the Dolphins did with Tua when Fitzpatrick was playing well.

If it’s close coming out of preseason, that means Pickett didn’t do enough to separate himself, and Mitch will be the starter.

[43M]

@warfelg, @Dcash4

Not sure what you two are arguing, since at the end of the day, its pretty simple as @bigben07MVP pointed out....its going to come down to who the coaches think puts us in the best position to win.

I do, however, agree with the notion that, if its an even competition through training camp and preseason, Trubisky will very likely get the nod.   He may not keep the job long term....will depend on how he plays, but if they are pretty even, I expect them to roll with the vet to start the season.

[warfelg]

29 minutes ago, 43M said:

@warfelg, @Dcash4

Not sure what you two are arguing, since at the end of the day, its pretty simple as @bigben07MVP pointed out....its going to come down to who the coaches think puts us in the best position to win.

I do, however, agree with the notion that, if its an even competition through training camp and preseason, Trubisky will very likely get the nod.   He may not keep the job long term....will depend on how he plays, but if they are pretty even, I expect them to roll with the vet to start the season.

That was my point all along.