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The low Tony Boselli bar means Randall Cunningham is a HoF Player


SkippyX
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Hear me out on this. Everyone knows that Boselli had a brief time as one of the most dominant OTs in the game.

He was All-Pro 4 times and he was a pro bowl player 5 times.

His teams won 3 playoff games.

His 5 peak AV years were 16, 15, 14, 11, 11

Sure his peak was awesome but we are also giving him special injury credit.

 

Cunningham was 2nd in MVP voting in 1988, 1990 (Ultimate Weapon), and 1998 (13-1 year with crazy bombs to Moss and an NFCCG OT loss on a Gary Anderson shank)

You can make a case for him as MVP in all 3 years, though I would go with TD in 1998. Cunningham still played at an MVP level all 3 years.

He also made the pro bowl in 1989.

He led his team to 3 playoff wins.

His 7 peak AV seasons were 20, 19, 17, 16, 15, 11, 11

Injury credit? Cunningham missed 15 3/4 games in 1991 after an MVP level season. He also missed 12 1/2 games in 1993 after being named NFC Player of the month in September.

He also missed 4 games due to strike in 1987. That's 32 games in his prime.

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Posted (edited)

This to me is the clincher. Here are some passing comparisons from 1987-1990 which are the primes of these others and Randall's first 4 years as a full time starter.

 Marino   33-27 record 57.8%  15239 yards 99 TDs 69 picks 254 yards per game 82.0 rating. TD% 4.6 INT% 3.2 YPA 7.2 TD/INT 1.44 to 1

 Kelly     36-19 record 60.1%   12137 yards 83 TDs 55 picks 220.7 yards per game 86.5 rating. TD% 5.2 INT% 3.4 YPA 7.5 TD/INT  1.51 to 1

 Randall  38-22 record 55.3% 13460 yards 98 TDs 56 picks 224.3 yards per game 81.5 rating. TD% 5.0 INT% 2.9 YPA 6.9 TD/INT 1.75 to 1

 Esiason 31-28 record 56.1% 13449 yards 96 TDs 66 picks 224.2 yards per game 84.7 rating.  TD% 5.7 INT% 3.9 YPA 8.0 TD/INT 1.46 to 1

 Elway  31-26-1 record 55.6%  13084 yards 69 TDs 63 picks 225.6 yards per game 76.6 rating. TD% 3.8 INT% 3.5 YPA 7.2 TD/INT 1.1 to 1

 Moon  31-23 record 57.7% 13453 yards 94 TDs 53 picks 249.1 yards per game  88.3 rating. TD% 5.5 INT% 3.1 YPA 7.9 TD/INT 1.77 to 1

He's right there or ahead of most of them in most categories besides YPA and completion %

 

Now comes the good part. He also ran for 2692 yards (44.9 per game) and 18 TDs at 6.9 yards per carry over those seasons. (with the occasional 92 yard punt)

He also averaged 54 yards on 9 punts just for fun.

Elway ran for 1040 (17.9 per game) and 11 TDs at 4.8 per pop.

Moon only ran for 683 (12.6 per game) yards at 3.8 per pop but he did score 14 TDs.

Its pretty clear that he was the 2nd best QB behind Montana (or at least 2A with Moon) over his first 4 years as a starter.

Cunningham had the most combined TDs and the most combined yards per game. He was right behind Kelly in win % and he was just behind Moon in TD to INT.

I'm not even listing Montana because he was the clear GoaT back then and obviously #1.

Its pretty clear he was the best QB in 1998.

 

That's 5 Tony Bosseli elite years and should get you into the HoF.

That's not even counting a pretty good 1992 where he was 2nd team all-pro with Jim Kelly behind Steve Young.

Now queue the Gayle Sayers style highlight reel.

 

Note: there were other decent QBs back then like Simms, Krieg, Everett, and Kosar but they were not at the same level.

Edited by SkippyX
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The advanced stats tell a much different story. Based on DVOA, Cunningham passing was 26th, 19th, 19th, and 11th in his so-called prime of 1987-90. Not terrible, considering his rushing contributions, but not great. Also factor in that he lead the league in fumbles 2x in that span, and had 50 fumbles total over those 4 years. He led the league in sacks in 3 of those 4 years too. 

His 1998 was spectacular, but we've learned that a motivated Moss can supercharge a QB's numbers. We saw the thoroughly mediocre Daunte Culpepper post similar numbers soon after Cunningham's 1998 season.

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17 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Its pretty clear that he was the 2nd best QB behind Montana (or at least 2A with Moon) over his first 4 years as a starter.

Note: there were other decent QBs back then like Simms, Krieg, Everett, and Kosar but they were not at the same level.

Cunningham was not better than Marino from 87-90. Yes Marino had an uptick in INTs those years, but he was almost never sacked and held on to the ball unlike Cunningham. Marino's advanced stats crush Cunningham's: DYAR ranks Marino 2nd, 1st, 6th, and 2nd from 1987-90. 

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Posted (edited)

If you need extra credit you have the insane competition of the 1985-1995 NFC East (7 SB winners in his division in 11 seasons)

  • The Giants had 2 HoF coaches (Parcells and Belichick)
  • DC had Gibbs
  • Dallas had Jimmy Johnson.

You also have all these QBs with all these great coaches and systems and good O-lines and running games.

Look at Boomer's run game in his 1988 MVP season. Woods and Brooks may have been the Bengals co-MVPs instead of Esiason.

 

Cunningham had almost none of that.

His O-line was in play for worst in the league most years.

His coaches were 2 offensive morons in Buddy (Randall, go make 5 plays!) and Kotite.

His 2 great WRs were Quick who got hurt way early and pre-greatness on-drugs-until-kicked-off-the-team Cris Carter

Carter's first 1000 yard season was his 4th in Minnesota in 1993 (he must have liked it so he had 7 more in a row) (he did have a nice 605 yard 11 TD year in 1989)

His two top 10 overall 1st round RBs were a complete dud in Michael Haddix(1983) and a pass catching back who could not run for average in Byars.

RB YPC during that elite 1987-1990 Cunningham run. (carries in parenthesis)

  • (438) Byars 3.5
  • (570) Toney 3.5
  • (116) Haddix 3.0
  • (40) Tautalatasi 2.4
  • (49) Higgs 3.8
  • (40) Drummond 4.0
  • (204) Heath Sherman 4.2
  • (56) T Sanders 3.7
  • (391) Cunningham 6.9

The OL drafted in round 1 the year Cunningham was drafted in round 2 went to jail for rape.

Edited by SkippyX
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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Cunningham was not better than Marino from 87-90. Yes Marino had an uptick in INTs those years, but he was almost never sacked and held on to the ball unlike Cunningham. Marino's advanced stats crush Cunningham's: DYAR ranks Marino 2nd, 1st, 6th, and 2nd from 1987-90. 

Marino did not win like Randall, he did not move the ball like Randall, he did not score like Randall, but he had a quick release and a better O-line.... OK

No denying Marino was a passing god from 1983-1986. He was behind Randall as an overall QB from 1987-1990. Maybe not miles behind but behind.

His AV was 12, 12, 14, 12. Cunningham's was 11, 17, 16, 20

Marino brough zero to the run game and fumbled 25 times. Sure Randall fumbled 50 times (mostly getting killed in the pocket behind a crap o-line) but he was also the most dangerous runner in the league (at least until Sanders joined in 1989) Moon had 45 fumbles (he had a pass heavy QB exposed system). Elway had 26. Kelly 21. Esiason 34.

 

FYI, Lawrence Taylor sacked Cunningham 10 1/2 times in those 4 years. That's how good he was and how bad the line was.

Randall went 5-3 against those Giants anyway.

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Taylor only got Marino on 1/2 a sack in 1990 but Marino led the Dolphins to a whole FG in that one. 20-3 Giants

Marino missed out on Taylor in 1987 because of the strike.

 

Edited by SkippyX
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Posted (edited)

I love the QB at MVP level does not count because a WR was also good at some point with another QB.

Brady 2007 is now invalid.

Young and Montana are now neutralized.

Rodgers last 2 MVPs were on Adams?

Shame about Stafford since its really just Megatron and Kupp.

Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning have both just been erased.

 

its not an actual argument. its just something people say when they have nothing else.

It also does nothing for rookies Fred Barnett(3rd) and Calvin Williams(5th) in 1990.

Ultimate Weapon indeed.

Edited by SkippyX
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1 minute ago, SkippyX said:

I love the QB at MVP level does not count because a WR was also good at some point with another QB.

Brady 2007 is now invalid.

Young and Montana are now neutralized.

Rodgers 4 MVPs were really mostly just Jordy and Adams?

Shame about Stafford since its really just Megatron and Kupp.

Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning have both just been erased.

 

its not an actual argument. its just something people say when they have nothing else.

Culpepper took over the same team and posted similar numbers to Cunningham. Your analogies are not apt, rather they are weak stawmen. 

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9 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Marino did not win like Randall, he did not move the ball like Randall, he did not score like Randall, but he had a quick release and a better O-line.... OK

Philly was winning in the late 80s on the strength of their defense. Their defenses were ranked, 7th, 2nd, 2nd, and 5th from 1987-90 (DVOA). 

Meanwhile Philly's offense was ranked 15th, 10th, 18th, 6th. Pretty good, but nothing special. 

Marino had to carry a team with defense ratings of 28th, 28th, 28th, and 10th over that span.

Sacks and fumbles are drive killers and Cunningham was the king of sacks and fumbles during his peak. His teams were led by Buddy Ryan and Reggie White. I'm open to considering that Cunningham was underrated but he was a sloppy player who made way too many mistakes. The reason he took so many sacks is because he was always scrambling around trying to do too much. Very little pocket discipline. But he got bailed out by Reggie White and co. a lot. 

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Cunningham's HoF case is entirely irrelevant to Boselli. Cunningham should get in because he was a dynamic, one-of-a-kind gamechanger who never got the respect he deserved while he was playing. 3 different MVP-2 seasons is absurd.

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14 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Philly was winning in the late 80s on the strength of their defense. Their defenses were ranked, 7th, 2nd, 2nd, and 5th from 1987-90 (DVOA). 

Meanwhile Philly's offense was ranked 15th, 10th, 18th, 6th. Pretty good, but nothing special. 

Marino had to carry a team with defense ratings of 28th, 28th, 28th, and 10th over that span.

Sacks and fumbles are drive killers and Cunningham was the king of sacks and fumbles during his peak. His teams were led by Buddy Ryan and Reggie White. I'm open to considering that Cunningham was underrated but he was a sloppy player who made way too many mistakes. The reason he took so many sacks is because he was always scrambling around trying to do too much. Very little pocket discipline. But he got bailed out by Reggie White and co. a lot. 

We remember the running highlights but not the countless drive killing sacks 

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Actually like this comparison. Boselli and Randall C had incredible bursts of productivity. It wasn't sustained and consistent over a 12-yr career or anything but still...Hall of Fame it is. Both were special, in modest intervals.

Good enough for me, crown'em. 

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19 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Hear me out on this. Everyone knows that Boselli had a brief time as one of the most dominant OTs in the game.

He was All-Pro 4 times and he was a pro bowl player 5 times.

His teams won 3 playoff games.

His 5 peak AV years were 16, 15, 14, 11, 11

Sure his peak was awesome but we are also giving him special injury credit.

if u wanna talk Special Injury Credit then u should See Terrell Davis. 

78 games played for Terrell Davis.  Boselli played in 91 games and was an all 90s Team Tackle despite coming into the league in 1995. 

think of all the Top Level OTs that played and came in the 90s from Willie Roaf, richmond Webb down to guys like Orlando Pace and Jonathan Odgen. 

i know this would be crazy Revisionist history but Imagine if the Jags Drafted Ogden after taking Tony the year before. 

2 HOF tackles,  1 HOF caliber WR(dont believe me check out Jimmy Smith and his career numbers and how they match up right now in history) and throw in a HOF caliber RB in Fred Taylor(dudes a better RB then TD any Day. 

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