How bad would this season have to be for Ron to be fired?

[turtle28]

 

[DCNative]

5 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Why do you never read someone’s post?

I did and I do. You've been supportive of the Wentz trade but yet say a 6-7 win season isn't enough to get Rivera fired, how so? Rivera traded for Wentz because he thought Wentz was the missing piece to get the team further. Riveras other off-season decisions should be evaluated as well. Rivera needs at least 9 wins for Me to believe he shouldn't be fired. 

[turtle28]

12 hours ago, DCNative said:

I did and I do. You've been supportive of the Wentz trade but yet say a 6-7 win season isn't enough to get Rivera fired, how so? Rivera traded for Wentz because he thought Wentz was the missing piece to get the team further. Riveras other off-season decisions should be evaluated as well. Rivera needs at least 9 wins for Me to believe he shouldn't be fired. 

I’ve been accepting of the Wentz trade, I never actually advocated for it. Maybe you weren’t on the board when we all were discussing QB options last Jan, Feb & March but I never once WANTED to trade for Carson Wentz but, much like when we traded for Alex Smith, it happened so I’m going to hope it goes well for us bc I want the team to win.

If it were up to me, I would’ve done what the Steelers & Falcons did. I would’ve signed Trubisky, Mariota, Bridgewater or Tyrod Taylor & drafted Kenny Pickett instead of Jahan Dotson in round 1 or drafted Ridder, Corral, Willis or Howell (like we did) later in the draft. Then, they would’ve compete with Heinicke to start. 
 

When I say I don’t think Rivera will get fired, I’m not saying what I would do, I’m saying what I think will happen aka what Dan will do. I don’t see Dan Snyder firing Rivera after just 3 seasons. I think Ron gets his full five years unless by some crazy reason this year and/or next we don’t even win 7 game which again, I don’t see happening bc our talent is that of a team who will finish around .500 even if Heinicke is our starter.

Edited August 23, 2022 by turtle28

[ovfd55]

Think the only way Rivera gets Fired is if both of the following is true

We Fire Del-Rio by mid-season and the Defense doesn't improve afterwards

Wentz nor Howell show promise at QB.

Only how I see Ron fired is if we have a legit shot at Bryce Young or Cj Stroud and Dan decides the better money and hire a guy Like Eric Beiniemy as a offensive mind but also looks like he giving a shot to a guy overlooked so it looks like good publicity.

[naptownskinsfan]

On 8/22/2022 at 8:28 AM, MikeT14 said:

If we go 6-11 and look lost, I could see him gone. At minimum there would be MAJOR changes. 

He’s still got his coordinators as scapegoats. Rivera is getting through year four at least.

[naptownskinsfan]

On 8/22/2022 at 7:00 PM, Doc Draper said:

This squad is one of the weakest and poorly structured rosters. I can’t name 5 teams with less talent and outside of the OL coach no coach is top 10 at their position= Fans again 

I say Randy Jordan deserves some love here, but he was literally the only holdover fr Gruden. Now that Pete Hoerner retired (I think) that’s about it. 

[turtle28]

19 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

I say Randy Jordan deserves some love here, but he was literally the only holdover fr Gruden. Now that Pete Hoerner retired (I think) that’s about it. 

Someone on Twitter who was a college running back said he doesn’t think Randy Jordan has done a good job. He said he feels the drills they do are ordinary & he’s never found raw, a late round or undrafted RB and developed them into a good or great back. 
 

He pointed to the examples of Matt Jones & Antonio Gibson as guys who were raw but had a lot of talent that Randy Jordan was given but they never really reached their potential as running backs.

We've also had numerous late round and undrafted running backs that we’ve acquired and none of them have been developed into really good long term back ups or long term starters & even if they were starters like Robert Kelly, it’s not like he was special. So, I tended to agree with him once he pointed all that out.

[naptownskinsfan]

11 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Someone on Twitter who was a college running back said he doesn’t think Randy Jordan has done a good job. He said he feels the drills they do are ordinary & he’s never found raw, a late round or undrafted RB and developed them into a good or great back. 
 

He pointed to the examples of Matt Jones & Antonio Gibson as guys who were raw but had a lot of talent that Randy Jordan was given but they never really reached their potential as running backs.

We've also had numerous late round and undrafted running backs that we’ve acquired and none of them have been developed into really good long term back ups or long term starters & even if they were starters like Robert Kelly, it’s not like he was special. So, I tended to agree with him once he pointed all that out.

See, I think turning a really raw athlete like Gibson into a weapon at RB is doing a very good job.  Granted, I think we are not using him in the most dynamic way possible, but I think they got it right with him.  Also, I think this is the year to grade Gibson.  I think we forget how really raw he was, and that was purely a projection pick at that point based on the crazy athleticism. 

Also, seeing JD McKissec blossom into a fantastic receiving weapon is another strike in their favor.  

Personally, I think Jordan has done a pretty good job with what he’s had to work with here.  

 

[Thaiphoon]

He's "Coach For Life"

[naptownskinsfan]

Just a musing to put here, but as the resident Orioles fan, it’s quite amazing to see where this franchise was at the same time that Snyder bought the Redskins.  Like the Redskins, it was a veteran team past their prime, but the owner put money into the roster.  However, it was always missing something.  Occasionally, the Redskins would luck into a winning/playoff season, just like the Orioles lucked into a window from 2012-2016.  Angelos refused to invest into anything beyond the MLB payroll.  Our analytics department was the smallest in MLB.  Our scouting department was average, and had next to no international scouting presence.  We just ignored about 30% of the talent pool.  Our minor league development system was in the Stone Age, populated by guys who were part of the “Orioles Way” from the 80’s and 90’s.  

Of course, this all sounds familiar, down to the meddling owner.  As Snyder is famous for leaving vanilla ice cream at Mike Nolan’s office door because he considered Nolan’s defense to be “too vanilla,” Angelos is famous for his “aggressive” physicals that multiple players failed, and which probably drove more than a few players to never consider signing with Baltimore.  

Things began a turnaround in November of 2018.  Out was Dan Duquette, and in came Mike Elias, assistant GM of the Houston Astros and a hot front office commodity.  John Angelos, now acting for his father, gave Elias complete control of the Orioles.  Out of the gate, Elias brought in Sig Mejdal, a rocket scientist, to help rebuild the Orioles analytics department, but essentially observed the current Orioles structure for much of the next year.  At the end of 2019, sweeping changes took place.  Out were almost all of the executives under him.  Also out, or shifted around, were multiple people in the player development pipeline, including those who were part of the “Oriole Way” including Brady Anderson and BJ Surhoff.  Scott McGregor was another, but he was assigned to a much smaller role.  

Elias brought in more front office talent.  Koby Perez came from the Indians organization, where he made a lot of inroads in Latin America, to help establish a presence in Latin America.  The Orioles have since broken ground on a player development facility, and have signed multiple players the past two years in the Top 50 International Prospects pool to seven figure deals.  

Matt Blood came from the Rangers organization to head up the player development system, and was a former Cardinals scout.  Blood has overhauled an area that consistently failed to develop talent over the years, specifically pitching.  Elias also hired Chris Holt to a multi-faceted role with pitching, and the fruits of that position are finally being seen this year.  

Finally, Eve Rosenbaum oversees the baseball operations department, and she came from the Astros with Elias and Mejdal.  

Currently, the Orioles are experiencing a turnaround no one expected.  Many experts are praising their scouting department and development pipeline for overhauling what was the worst farm system into arguably the best.  Baseball America has consistently ranked it top five the past two years, and last I checked, it’s been number 1, even after graduating Adley Rutschman.  The analytics department, formerly non-existent, has helped turn scrap-heap players into productive ones, and look no further than most of the pitching this year and the development of Cedric Mullins, Anthony Santander and Jorge Mateo.  Some of these experts are talking about the Orioles in the same breath as the Rays and Dodgers for the few teams who have put all of this together.  

Now, where am I going with this?  

In my opinion, Rivera got one thing right.  You give things a year to see what the current landscape is.  Maybe there is one thing that you do to make an immediate mark on a weakness, but otherwise you want to see what’s working, and what’s not.  Rivera did that.  

However, since then, I think it’s been all downhill.  When you look at talent, Elias brought in talented front office people.  Mejdal is highly regarded in baseball circles as one of the smartest men in the room.  Perez has a future as a GM.  Blood has worked his way up through the ranks.  Rosenbaum may likely follow Kim Ng as a female GM one day.  Chris Holt has had to have multiple position/responsibility titles to keep him from being poached by other clubs.  

What has Rivera done? He’s since surrounded himself with the following: 

GM Martin Mayhew: 47-81 record as GM of the Lions, with an 0-2 playoff record.  

EVP of Football/Player Personnel Marty Hurney: 107-133 record as GM of the Panthers in separate stints, with a 5-3 playoff record 

Director of Pro Personnel Chris Polian: 26-22 record as GM of the Colts, 2-2 playoff record.  

Additionally, Eric Stokes came over from the Carolina Panthers as Senior Director of Player Personnel, Jeff Beatherd as a national scout from the Panthers, and Rob Rogers as Senior VP of Football Adminsitration, who has an extensive career with, you guessed it, the Panthers.  

Additionally, Hurney, Mayhew, Beatherd and Doug Williams all have legacy ties to the franchise.  

Look, I’ve made it my point that I’ve hated most of Rivera’s Carolina hiring and signings.  I was actually on board with the Scott Turner hire after I read a little more about him. When they’ve done a good job, like Matsko and Horner, I am the first to praise them.  However, just about all of the senior front office leadership is either a long-term Carolina Panther, a legacy Redskin, or in a few cases, both.  I also argue that none of the people who I listed are rising stars in the field, like Blood, Perez or Rosenbaum would be.  I’d also argue that none are a subject-matter expert like a Sig Mejdal.  

In the end, Snyder got this wrong, again.  Perhaps he got rid of his Mike Elias in Kyle Smith.  Maybe his Mike Elias could’ve been Eliot Wolf.  Maybe it’s someone else.  But what I do know is that you aren’t going to get anywhere by hiring a bunch of retreads.  Sure, hire a Marty Hurney, who is someone Rivera trusts.  But you also need to hire executives who are good at their job, and want to advance up the ranks and will bring new ideas and make the team better.  You want to be a pipeline for talent.  This franchise is a stepping stone, if even that.  

We had a chance to completely reset this franchise and bring in fresh energy.  Instead, we hired a coach who was fired not even two months before, who had a losing record the previous four years, and who had as many winning seasons as outgoing executive Bruce Allen had……..and the same guy has brought in two GMs with losing records, and a third who is essentially .500, and a bunch of guys who think the same way.  That’s not the recipe for putting a winner out there folks.  

/musing

[lavar703]

Stuff like this is why he should at least have his total control taken away. This team badly needs a real GM. 

[turtle28]

On 8/24/2022 at 3:55 PM, naptownskinsfan said:

See, I think turning a really raw athlete like Gibson into a weapon at RB is doing a very good job.  Granted, I think we are not using him in the most dynamic way possible, but I think they got it right with him.  Also, I think this is the year to grade Gibson.  I think we forget how really raw he was, and that was purely a projection pick at that point based on the crazy athleticism. 

Also, seeing JD McKissec blossom into a fantastic receiving weapon is another strike in their favor.  

Personally, I think Jordan has done a pretty good job with what he’s had to work with here.  

 

Yeah, that was my argument as well. This guy was a division 2 running back. I understood what he was saying but I said I didn’t think Randy Jordan was awful.

[turtle28]

On 8/28/2022 at 9:25 PM, lavar703 said:

Stuff like this is why he should at least have his total control taken away. This team badly needs a real GM. 

He should but we all know it’s not going to happen. This is a Shanahan deal. It’s either Ron has final say in all football operations or he’s going to be gone, eventually or right away. 
 

The greatest mystery with Rivera has been how he’s handled the LBs since he’s been here. I really expected us to have one of the best LB corps in the league when we hired Rivera & he just refuses to upgrade it more than what he has. It’s been such a disappointment. 

[Thaiphoon]

In terms of NFL fandom, this team under Snyder is the epitome of The Eagles' song "Hotel California"

[Slappy Mc]

1 hour ago, Thaiphoon said:

In terms of NFL fandom, this team under Snyder is the epitome of The Eagles' song "Hotel California"

Groundhog day for me.

We just never figured out how to get it right.