Early talk on the Giants offseason

[ny92mike]

Do the Giants fire Jerry Reese?  Who do you bring in to replace him should he be fired?

Are coaches fired, if so which ones?  Any potential coaches that we could bring in?

What is our record at the end of the season?  What draft pick number will we hold?

Overthecap lists our 2018 free agents

 

 

Player	Pos.	2017 Team	2018 Team	Type	Current APY	Guarantees
Shane Vereen	RB	Giants		UFA	$4,116,667	$4,750,000
Justin Pugh	LG	Giants		UFA	$3,433,380	$16,727,128
Keenan Robinson	43OLB	Giants		UFA	$3,000,000	$2,000,000
DJ Fluker	RG	Giants		UFA	$3,000,000	$1,500,000
Jonathan Casillas	43OLB	Giants		UFA	$2,666,667	$2,975,000
Kerry Wynn	43DE	Giants		UFA	$1,797,000	$0
Weston Richburg	C	Giants		UFA	$1,219,337	$2,928,861
Geno Smith	QB	Giants		UFA	$1,200,000	$300,000
Orleans Darkwa	RB	Giants		UFA	$1,100,000	$200,000
Ross Cockrell	CB	Giants		UFA	$1,100,000	$100,000
Mark Herzlich	43OLB	Giants		UFA	$855,000	$80,000
JT Thomas	43OLB	Giants		UFA	$795,000	$0
Devin Taylor	43DE	Giants		UFA	$775,000	$0
Corbin Bryant	43DT	Giants		UFA	$775,000	$0
Kelvin Sheppard	ILB	Giants		UFA	$775,000	$0
Jay Bromley	43DT	Giants		UFA	$750,969	$643,876
Tavarres King	WR	Giants		RFA	$690,000	$0
Deontae Skinner	43OLB	Giants		UFA	$615,000	$0
Kevin Norwood	WR	Giants		UFA	$615,000	$0
Nat Berhe	S	Giants		UFA	$603,200	$192,800
Devon Kennard	43OLB	Giants		UFA	$591,140	$144,560
Robert Thomas	43DT	Giants		ERFA	$540,000	$0
Brett Jones	C	Giants		RFA	$525,000	$0
Shane Smith	RB	Giants		ERFA	$465,000	$0
Travis Rudolph	WR	Giants		ERFA	$465,000	$0
Curtis Grant	ILB	Giants		RFA	$465,000	$0
Donte Deayon	CB	Giants		ERFA	$465,000	$0
Ed Eagan	WR	Giants		ERFA	$465,000	$0
Jon Halapio	LG	Giants		UFA	$465,000	$0

 

Our projected available cap is a little over 30 million, not great but average compared to the other 31 teams.

Any players you expect to get resigned?

Any potential free agents that could help this team get back on track?

Any big name players that you think will get released or traded?

Would love to hear from fellow Giants' fans.

[Gmen]

Wow, over half the team is a free agent after this year.  Really works out well for the new GM and HC. They can bring in their own players and shape the team how they want it.  

I’m not sure what the cap implications would be of cutting JPP or DRC but i would consider that.  They are veterans that are part of the culture problem imo.

Regardless, thankfully this team will look much different next year.  Hopefully the turnaround is quick

[Acgott]

We will Fire McAdoo and Reese. I had a nightmare last night that we won 5 straight games (true story) so we probably end with the sixth pick. Pugh is the only player that Giants need to re-sign. I have a lovely drunk picture with him.

A few others will be brought back with min deals like Kennard and Bromley.

We aren’t going to sign any major FA, we need that full rebuild to put us on track. We have talent just need  better handlers.

There is no excuse for this season. There is no reason we should ever have a season like this. Blame whoever you want, but change is coming.

[Acgott]

4 minutes ago, Gmen said:

I’m not sure what the cap implications would be of cutting JPP or DRC but i would consider that.  They are veterans that are part of the culture problem imo.

 

We can’t cut JPP, but DRC would save $6M with 2M dead.

[ny92mike]

19 minutes ago, Acgott said:

We will Fire McAdoo and Reese. I had a nightmare last night that we won 5 straight games (true story) so we probably end with the sixth pick. Pugh is the only player that Giants need to re-sign. I have a lovely drunk picture with him.

A few others will be brought back with min deals like Kennard and Bromley.

We aren’t going to sign any major FA, we need that full rebuild to put us on track. We have talent just need  better handlers.

There is no excuse for this season. There is no reason we should ever have a season like this. Blame whoever you want, but change is coming.

Haha....it wouldn't surprise me if we didn't figure out a way to muster enough wins to remove up from a top 5 pick, but sixth is still solid and should provide us with a talented player to help out this offensive line.

I like Pugh, just not in love with him.  I think that they've found his position at left guard and perhaps if the tackles were better he would be impressing me more.  My man crush is on Weston Richburg and really believe he's the best player on the offensive line.  Not discrediting Pugh, just a bigger fan of Weston, so I'm hoping that he's given an extension before becoming a free agent.

My concern is our 2018 cap space.  30 million isn't a ton of space considering the price tag on every single position is going up.  Both Pugh> and Richburg are going to get paid big money but it would be cheaper to sign Richburg.  Weston should land somewhere in the 8 million APY range, where Pugh should land an APY in the range of 10 million. 

Signing both of these lineman would strip half of our available cap, depending on the structure of the deal give or take a couple million.  Then consider several of the linebackers are free agents and would either need to be resigned or find replacements.

It would be difficult to find savings by releasing any of the recent signings outside of Brandon Marshall who would save us roughly 5 million.

Here is the list of players and what they would save if cut.

Player cuts that make sense to me that I don't think would completely kill our chances to stay competitive are:

DRC - 6.5 M

Brandon Marshall - 5.1 M  

Ereck Flowers (apologies, I had been misspelling his first name in earlier discussions) - 0 M

These three players would put 11.6 M 

As for Flowers, if they could find a replacement for him at left tackle, I'd love to see what this kid could do at right tackle, with the season lost, might not be a bad idea to see what he could do on the right side, at least then we would know if we needed to add both a left and right tackle.

Lesser capped players would be; John Jerry, Dwayne Harris, Zak DeOssie, Bobby Hart.

Name	Pos.	Exp.	Base Salary (Gtd.)	Prorated	Roster	Workout	Cap Number	Dead Money	Cap Gain/Loss
Eli Manning	QB	14	$10,500,000	$6,200,000	$5,000,000	$500,000	$22,200,000	$12,400,000	$9,800,000
Jason Pierre-Paul	43DE	8	$11,250,000 ($7,750,000)	$5,000,000	$1,000,000	$250,000	$17,500,000	$22,750,000	($5,250,000)
Olivier Vernon	43DE	6	$12,750,000	$4,000,000	$0	$250,000	$17,000,000	$12,000,000	$5,000,000
Janoris Jenkins	CB	6	$10,900,000	$2,000,000	$0	$100,000	$13,000,000	$6,000,000	$7,000,000
Damon Harrison	43DT	6	$7,750,000 ($2,500,000)	$1,600,000	$0	$250,000	$9,600,000	$7,300,000	$2,300,000
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie	CB	10	$6,480,000	$2,000,000	$0	$20,000	$8,500,000	$2,000,000	$6,500,000
Odell Beckham, Jr.	WR	4	$8,459,000	$0	$0	$0	$8,459,000	$0	$8,459,000
Brandon Marshall	WR	12	$5,000,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$0	$6,156,250	$1,000,000	$5,156,250
Ereck Flowers	LT	3	$2,397,522 ($2,397,522)	$2,181,697	$0	$0	$4,579,219	$4,579,219	$0
Eli Apple	CB	2	$1,827,484 ($1,827,484)	$2,304,952	$0	$0	$4,132,436	$8,953,614	($4,821,178)
John Jerry	RG	8	$3,050,000	$800,000	$250,000	$25,000	$4,125,000	$1,600,000	$2,525,000
Dwayne Harris	WR	7	$3,225,000	$800,000	$0	$25,000	$4,050,000	$1,600,000	$2,450,000
Rhett Ellison	TE	6	$2,475,000 ($2,025,000)	$1,250,000	$0	$25,000	$3,750,000	$5,775,000	($2,025,000)
Evan Engram	TE	1	$952,207 ($952,207)	$1,483,826	$0	$0	$2,436,033	$8,393,099	($5,957,066)
Brad Wing	P	4	$1,350,000	$500,000	$150,000	$25,000	$2,025,000	$1,000,000	$1,025,000
Landon Collins	S	3	$1,269,621	$677,829	$0	$0	$1,947,450	$677,829	$1,269,621
Sterling Shepard	WR	2	$990,416	$630,831	$0	$0	$1,621,247	$1,261,662	$359,585
Dalvin Tomlinson	43DT	1	$672,823 ($672,823)	$366,291	$0	$0	$1,039,114	$1,771,696	($732,582)
Zak DeOssie	LS	11	$1,015,000	$0	$0	$0	$1,015,000	$0	$1,015,000
Darian Thompson	S	2	$705,000	$209,284	$0	$25,000	$939,284	$418,568	$520,716
Adam Gettis	C	6	$790,000	$50,000	$0	$0	$840,000	$50,000	$790,000
Davis Webb	QB	1	$604,151	$191,605	$0	$25,000	$820,756	$574,815	$245,941
B.J. Goodson	ILB	2	$630,000	$145,552	$0	$0	$775,552	$291,104	$484,448
Bobby Hart	RT	3	$705,000	$17,897	$0	$0	$722,897	$17,897	$705,000
Paul Perkins	RB	2	$630,000	$63,137	$0	$0	$693,137	$126,274	$566,863
Jerell Adams	TE	2	$630,000	$35,714	$0	$0	$665,714	$71,428	$594,286
Wayne Gallman	RB	1	$555,000	$104,912	$0	$0	$659,912	$314,736	$345,176
Roger Lewis	WR	2	$630,000	$6,168	$0	$0	$636,168	$6,168	$630,000
Romeo Okwara	43DE	2	$630,000	$5,000	$0	$0	$635,000	$5,000	$630,000
Andrew Adams	S	2	$630,000	$0	$0	$0	$630,000	$0	$630,000
Avery Moss	43DE	1	$555,000	$63,695	$0	$0	$618,695	$191,085	$427,610
Jessamen Dunker	OT	1	$555,000	$3,333	$0	$0	$558,333	$6,667	$551,666
Calvin Munson	ILB	1	$555,000	$3,333	$0	$0	$558,333	$6,667	$551,666
Evan Schwan	43DE	1	$555,000	$1,666	$0	$0	$556,666	$3,334	$553,332
Josh Banks	43DT	1	$555,000	$833	$0	$0	$555,833	$1,667	$554,166
Nigel Harris	ILB	1	$555,000	$0	$0	$0	$555,000	$0	$555,000
Keeon Johnson	WR	1	$555,000	$0	$0	$0	$555,000	$0	$555,000
Aldrick Rosas	K	2	$555,000	$0	$0	$0	$555,000	$0	$555,000
Chad Wheeler	LT	1	$555,000	$0	$0	$0	$555,000	$0	$555,000
Ishaq Williams	43DE	2	$480,000	$0	$0	$0	$480,000	$0	$480,000

Regardless if they release or trade anyone this year, which I hope to god they don't trade Eli Manning, might stop being a fan if they did.  Would be nice to see Eli get the protection and a healthy group of players and a running game that actually pulled safeties into the box or for that matter closer to the LOS.

  

 

[ny92mike]

Oh and I hope you're right about JR and BM (Ben "bowel movement" McAdoo) getting canned.  

 

[Gmen]

I saw a tweet claiming flowers hasn’t allowed a sack in 288 snaps, second best current streak for left tackles.  He’s been everyone’s whipping boy for a few years, but he’s played well lately.  PFF has also ranked him pretty highly. It’s been lost due to the fact that the rest of the team is a dumpster fire.  What I’m saying is we are not cutting flowers.  Worst case is moving him to RT

[Acgott]

3 minutes ago, Gmen said:

I saw a tweet claiming flowers hasn’t allowed a sack in 288 snaps, second best current streak for left tackles.  He’s been everyone’s whipping boy for a few years, but he’s played well lately.  It’s been due to the fact that the rest of the team is a dumpster fire.  What I’m saying is we are not cutting flowers.  Worst case is moving him to RT

But his run blocking is now among the worst.

[ny92mike]

Appreciate the info, but I personally haven't taken PPF rankings as truth.  

You are probably right in that they won't release him nor will they move him to right tackle, but I don't buy that he is the reason his sack numbers are down.  Protection is being pushed to his side, Manning is forced to release the ball out early, someone beats him to the sack.  Huge supporter of statistical data but I also know that stats can be structured to tell you whatever story you want to hear in many cases.

I personally feel that he isn't meant to play left tackle and really not sure if he can do any better on the right side.  He seems to always be getting drove back into the pocket, isn't stable nor fast enough to mirror his opponents direction, among other things.

All I'm saying is we need to find either through fa, trade or draft sign better suited players and replace the bulk of what we've currently got.  An immobile quarterback must have the pass protection to succeed.  The man is constantly under duress which is clearly affecting his accuracy and decision making abilities.

   

 

[ny92mike]

Dang this can't be all the debate we get from this thread.  

Lets hear some potential free agents or draft prospects.  I haven't scouted this year but I do know that tackle from Oklahoma is a beast any other linemen stand out that you've seen?

Whats linebacker look like this season?  Heck, what positions are loaded and where is it weak?

[Gmen]

9 hours ago, ny92jefferis said:

Dang this can't be all the debate we get from this thread.  

Lets hear some potential free agents or draft prospects.  I haven't scouted this year but I do know that tackle from Oklahoma is a beast any other linemen stand out that you've seen?

Whats linebacker look like this season?  Heck, what positions are loaded and where is it weak?

The state of this team is very much in flux.  It’s hard to say what positions we should target not knowing anything about or next HC.  Is he offense or defense oriented?  4-3 or 3-4?  WCO or power offense?  That’s going to drive the personnel decisions.

The only given is that we need to get one of the top qbs in this draft.  It sounds like the experts agree it’s Darnold.  It would be nice if we ended up with the #1 pick but the browns probably will get it.  Do we trade up?  Would they even be willing to give up Darnold?  Those are the most pressing questions.  Once we get our next franchise qb, we can start building around him, obj, engram.  

[Go_Giants]

Reese and Mcadoo have to go. If we get a top 3 pick and a franchise QB is out there we have to draft him.  'Will you draft a franchise QB with our top 3 pick' should be the first question Mara ask when interviewing the next GM. If the person says no then Mara should tell them he has no further questions and there will not be a second interview.

I like Pugh, I do not like Richburg, either way I do not want to sign either of them. You typically can get a good guard in the 2nd round and a good center in the 3rd round.  We save money by not signing either player and  we upgrade the center position.

As for Flowers I have no idea why he has not gone to an offensive lineman camp during the off season. His number #1 problem is technique, you would think at the camp they would specifically work on his technique. The next GM should strongly suggest Flowers attend one of those camps.  Given how much tackles cost you have to keep Flowers around.

If there is a good free agent LT out there I think that should be our number one priority.  We put Flowers at RT. draft center and a guard that are maulers. Then just have only one guard spot to worry about. 

Speaking of that guard spot,  Bobby Hart is not a Tackle. Have him put the ten pounds he lost back on and have him compete for the the other guard spot.

I like DRC but given his game and his age it is time we let him go. 

I actually think we should keep Brandon Marshall, 5 mill is not that bad. No fourth round pick is going to beat him out. None of the other wideouts, King or Lewis have looked that good to me and are showing me they can be better than him. Hopefully the next coach will use Brandon Marshall right.

 

 

[minutemancl]

On 11/16/2017 at 12:30 PM, Acgott said:

But his run blocking is now among the worst.

I plan on watching more film of him and analyzing his play and how it has changed, but the most obvious change that everyone can see on Sundays is how different his set is. He's almost never in a 3 point stance, is angled outward more than he was before, and leaves a large gap between him and whoever is playing LG. The advantage of this is it helps him neutralize his biggest weakness, speed rushers, by giving him a head start to the corner they want to turn up at. In recent weeks, you probably noticed Flowers running a lot of edge rushers out of the play by beating them to the corner then running them behind Eli out of the play. It also helps in distinguishing stunts, which funnily enough John Jerry has been terrible at, but has been better since he's changed to the left side, playing next to Flowers who leaves that huge gap in the line. This results in less pressures on Eli. The no sack mark is also indicative of how fast Eli has been getting the ball out of his hands, which at this point I believe ranks 3rd fastest.

The disadvantages are that any inside move on a run play will blow the whole thing up. If he can find a happy medium, or get comfortable enough that he can get a bit closer to the LG and be a little less angled and still get to his spot in pass protection, the run blocking will pick up. Another thing to consider is PFF's run blocking metric is garbage. I think Flowers has been slightly above average overall this year among LTs (top 16), which is I think where PFF ranks him, but his run blocking is not as bad as they say just like his pass protection is not as good as they say. They don't account for time to release for the QB.

That was a jumbled mess of my observations so far on Flowers, but in this lost season where I have nothing else to do but look forward to the offseason, I'll do a more in depth analysis of Flowers at some point.

[ny92mike]

Personally, I'd hate to think we'd draft quarterback again this year.  I still believe with a better coach and some real fixes to the offensive line, perhaps even finding a true power back that has the ability to draw the safeties closer to the line of scrimmage we wouldn't be in this mess.

I don't see Eli Manning as the problem and perhaps that is where we differ in opinion.  

Drafting another quarterback this year, means the one we drafted last year was a mistake.  I know that the qb's coming out in this draft class are said to be better than last years but why draft one in the third round.  I don't think he was even selected to replace Eli this year or next.  

Guess I'm just not ready to see Eli playing for another team or retired just yet.

[Acgott]

15 minutes ago, ny92jefferis said:

Personally, I'd hate to think we'd draft quarterback again this year.  I still believe with a better coach and some real fixes to the offensive line, perhaps even finding a true power back that has the ability to draw the safeties closer to the line of scrimmage we wouldn't be in this mess.

I don't see Eli Manning as the problem and perhaps that is where we differ in opinion.  

Drafting another quarterback this year, means the one we drafted last year was a mistake.  I know that the qb's coming out in this draft class are said to be better than last years but why draft one in the third round.  I don't think he was even selected to replace Eli this year or next.  

Guess I'm just not ready to see Eli playing for another team or retired just yet.

Eli will be 37. He has a year or so left. We need to plan for the future.

I do agree that the Giants will not draft a QB in the first though. I believe they will go BPA and that player won't be a QB.