Early talk on the Giants offseason

[Shockwave]

I trust Collins's judgement on this. Hopefully the next GM/HC takes his advice and cuts ties with Apple. We all knew his mom/family were a potential distraction when he was drafted, but if his play is not up to par then he's not worth the drama and if it's affecting the other DB's moral. That unit has to be cohesive and built on trust that the other guy is going to do his job correctly. Way too many busted coverages and miscues this year.

Just another early Reese pick that'll end up a bust for us.. no biggie .. we're used to it.

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, Shockey1979 said:

I trust Collins's judgement on this. Hopefully the next GM/HC takes his advice and cuts ties with Apple. We all knew his mom/family were a potential distraction when he was drafted, but if his play is not up to par then he's not worth the drama and if it's affecting the other DB's moral. That unit has to be cohesive and built on trust that the other guy is going to do his job correctly. Way too many busted coverages and miscues this year.

Just another early Reese pick that'll end up a bust for us.. no biggie .. we're used to it.

Well that’s going overboard. We thought his mom would be an issue due to her job and how would that conflict, not because of her personal life and how would that impact Eli. 

He wasn’t an issue last year, so there is no need to be hasty. Those busted coverages aren’t because of Eli’s problems. He’s dealing with issues right now and has an off-season to deal with them and hopefully get into a better state of mind. I don’t wanna just throw away a talented player without at least trying to salvage him.

[ny92mike]

2 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Well that’s going overboard. We thought his mom would be an issue due to her job and how would that conflict, not because of her personal life and how would that impact Eli. 

He wasn’t an issue last year, so there is no need to be hasty. Those busted coverages aren’t because of Eli’s problems. He’s dealing with issues right now and has an off-season to deal with them and hopefully get into a better state of mind. I don’t wanna just throw away a talented player without at least trying to salvage him.

I typically don't read much of the off the field stuff, unless its making headlines, so I can't talk about his family issues.  I'm hoping the next coach we bring in can fix this "locker room".  Regardless how a player feels about their teammate, it shouldn't be voiced publicly, however if Apple can't get his off the field issues resolved, his on the field issues will continue to sideline him and a player sidelined isn't benefiting the team.  Unfortunately, releasing or trading him is costing the team vital cap space.  Lets hope he can lose this label, Collins tagged him with, if not he'll continue to watch rather than play.

Collins will be playing his last contract year and if Apple continues to be an issue it could jeopardize retaining him. 

[YogiBiz]

22 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

Unless that article shows that all tackles in the top are busts then I’m really not gonna give that article much credence. The draft in itself is random, there is no explanation for that stat. Why are Trent Williams, Tyron Smith, Lane Johnson, Eric Fisher success while guys like Matt Kalil, Joeckel, Robinson, Jason Smith busts? It happens. I could do a similar thing with QBs.

These guys techniques have not improved even slightly since they joined the NFL. That why. They were even drafted with the caveat, these guys have great athletic ability, but they never mastered their craft. That is why they are out of the NFL. 

[YogiBiz]

I want Baker (EDIT: Dede Westbrook on Baker Mayfield):

[YogiBiz]

From what I have been reading, Eli Apple's life is currently being controlled by Annie Apple. She is bleeding her son dry, money wise, and career wise. She will put her son out of the NFL. 

[Shockwave]

Just now, YogiBiz said:

From what I have been reading, Eli Apple's life is currently being controlled by Annie Apple. She is bleeding her son dry, money wise, and career wise. She will put her son out of the NFL. 

Yea and from the article I read she cut off all ties with her ex husband Tim Apple who was a major role model in Eli's life. She keeps Eli isolated from the rest of the family and I think that lack of support is affecting Eli as well. But the tweeting on the sidelines stuff, walking out of film sessions, refusing to take the field, arguing with coaches, and recent horrible play is just too much. He's not worth the drama. I hope he can turn it around but I feel like he's burned a few too many bridges now.

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, YogiBiz said:

These guys techniques have not improved even slightly since they joined the NFL. That why. They were even drafted with the caveat, these guys have great athletic ability, but they never mastered their craft. That is why they are out of the NFL. 

Kalil and Joeckel were considered technicians...particularly the latter. 

[ny92mike]

Any Giants fans interested in working with me this year in building the Giants team within a mock draft, me and some other guys run a solid one.  If you're interested tell us about it in the thread.

[GMENNATION]

Thought I'd put together a "roster confidence" post out there for you guys to react to. This isn't necessarily about the next 10-15 years but about putting together a roster for 2018. We have a lot of holes but also some good pieces in place that will hopefully allow us to compete next season.

QB: (8/10) Eli Manning, Davis Webb - I have no reason to lack confidence in either of them, respective to their roles. I have no evidence to base anything with Davis Webb off of but if Eli Manning is our starting QB next year, I still have a lot of confidence in him. 

RB: (6/10) Wayne Gallman, Paul Perkins - I liked what Gallman showed this year more than what Perkins did last year in the sense that he's decisive and runs HARD. I don't think he's a bell cow back but I think he can contribute. Perkins play was really disappointing and I'd rather not see him play any meaningful role moving forward. We need to draft/sign a few RBs regardless but neither guy signed up for next year can really take over games.

WR: (7/10) Odell Beckham Jr., Sterling Shepard, Brandon Marshall, Roger Lewis, Dwayne Harris, Travis Rudolph - We have 2 legit starters and Shepard showed me a lot in the second half of this year having big games when he was the only threat on the outside. The problem is the depth behind them. It's hard to believe Marshall or Harris would be back but either way, neither of them showed they had anything to offer. I like Roger Lewis at a WR4/ST but not more than that. Travis Rudolph is still a bit of a mystery so I can't place any confidence on him.

TE: (9/10) Evan Engram, Rhett Ellison, Jerell Adams - It doesn't matter what system we're in next year, we hit on Evan Engram. Dude is a legit threat in the passing game and his blocking should continue to improve. Rhett Ellison is what he is but he's a pro. 

OL: (2/10) Ereck Flowers, Chad Wheeler, Adam Bisnowaty, John Jerry, Brett Jones - Where do you place your most confidence in here? Brett Jones? Our best OL are not currently signed for next season and even if they were, we haven't shown that we can win with this group. Everyone knows this is Gettelman's top priority. 

DL: (8/10) Olivier Vernon, Jason Pierre-Paul, Damon Harrison, Dalvin Tomlinson, Romeo Okwara, Avery Moss - I understand the argument about the lack of pass rush but I'd bet on an improvement there. Most importantly, these guys are run defenders and while our defense was horrible this year, I don't think it was all their fault and believe in the improvement here.

LB: (2/10) BJ Goodson, Calvin Munson, Curtis Grant, Ishaq Williams - woof. We have some FAs we could re-sign but they didn't do much either. An investment must be made here.

CB: (1/10) Janoris Jenkins, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Eli Apple - DRC could be a cap casualty and Eli Apple is, well, no need to expand here. I'd bump this up to a 4/10 if I knew DRC was back because I think we could fill in the depth behind him and Jackrabbit but with so much uncertainty, this is our worst position group.

S: (8/10) Darian Thompson, Landon Collins, Andrew Adams - DT's season was a bit disappointing but it was essentially a rookie season and he got a ton of experience. His backup who came out of nowhere last year is still on the roster and depth can be obtained. 

ST: (3/10) Brad Wing, Aldrick Rosas, Zak DeOssie - yeah, not much optimism here.

Two of our three worst position groups are positions we just spent top 10 picks on. That is insane! We need Flowers and Apple to turn it around next year. A few of these position groups will have higher grades with some signings but man, it is not pretty to start the offseason. Welcome aboard Gettelman.. It's going to be a long 8 months.

[w4rrior723]

1 hour ago, GMENNATION said:

Thought I'd put together a "roster confidence" post out there for you guys to react to. This isn't necessarily about the next 10-15 years but about putting together a roster for 2018. We have a lot of holes but also some good pieces in place that will hopefully allow us to compete next season.

QB: (8/10) Eli Manning, Davis Webb - I have no reason to lack confidence in either of them, respective to their roles. I have no evidence to base anything with Davis Webb off of but if Eli Manning is our starting QB next year, I still have a lot of confidence in him. 

RB: (6/10) Wayne Gallman, Paul Perkins - I liked what Gallman showed this year more than what Perkins did last year in the sense that he's decisive and runs HARD. I don't think he's a bell cow back but I think he can contribute. Perkins play was really disappointing and I'd rather not see him play any meaningful role moving forward. We need to draft/sign a few RBs regardless but neither guy signed up for next year can really take over games.

WR: (7/10) Odell Beckham Jr., Sterling Shepard, Brandon Marshall, Roger Lewis, Dwayne Harris, Travis Rudolph - We have 2 legit starters and Shepard showed me a lot in the second half of this year having big games when he was the only threat on the outside. The problem is the depth behind them. It's hard to believe Marshall or Harris would be back but either way, neither of them showed they had anything to offer. I like Roger Lewis at a WR4/ST but not more than that. Travis Rudolph is still a bit of a mystery so I can't place any confidence on him.

TE: (9/10) Evan Engram, Rhett Ellison, Jerell Adams - It doesn't matter what system we're in next year, we hit on Evan Engram. Dude is a legit threat in the passing game and his blocking should continue to improve. Rhett Ellison is what he is but he's a pro. 

OL: (2/10) Ereck Flowers, Chad Wheeler, Adam Bisnowaty, John Jerry, Brett Jones - Where do you place your most confidence in here? Brett Jones? Our best OL are not currently signed for next season and even if they were, we haven't shown that we can win with this group. Everyone knows this is Gettelman's top priority. 

DL: (8/10) Olivier Vernon, Jason Pierre-Paul, Damon Harrison, Dalvin Tomlinson, Romeo Okwara, Avery Moss - I understand the argument about the lack of pass rush but I'd bet on an improvement there. Most importantly, these guys are run defenders and while our defense was horrible this year, I don't think it was all their fault and believe in the improvement here.

LB: (2/10) BJ Goodson, Calvin Munson, Curtis Grant, Ishaq Williams - woof. We have some FAs we could re-sign but they didn't do much either. An investment must be made here.

CB: (1/10) Janoris Jenkins, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Eli Apple - DRC could be a cap casualty and Eli Apple is, well, no need to expand here. I'd bump this up to a 4/10 if I knew DRC was back because I think we could fill in the depth behind him and Jackrabbit but with so much uncertainty, this is our worst position group.

S: (8/10) Darian Thompson, Landon Collins, Andrew Adams - DT's season was a bit disappointing but it was essentially a rookie season and he got a ton of experience. His backup who came out of nowhere last year is still on the roster and depth can be obtained. 

ST: (3/10) Brad Wing, Aldrick Rosas, Zak DeOssie - yeah, not much optimism here.

Two of our three worst position groups are positions we just spent top 10 picks on. That is insane! We need Flowers and Apple to turn it around next year. A few of these position groups will have higher grades with some signings but man, it is not pretty to start the offseason. Welcome aboard Gettelman.. It's going to be a long 8 months.

Yep, those Flowers and Apple picks have been truly tragic for us. It seems you have allot more hope for them than I do. I'm confident Apples Giants career is over, and Flowers best case scenario is he'll end up being a below average to average starter for the next 6-8 years before retiring. That's BEST case scenario I see for him. From two top 10 picks that's truly awful.

I think we need to bring back Darkwa after what he showed this season. 4.4 ypc behind this o-line is quite impressive. We also need to bring back Pugh and ideally Richburg, as well. If we spend a 1st or 2nd pick on an o-lineman things should look better.

Darian Thompson was EXTREMELY disappointing. He might be the worst tackler I've ever seen in a Giants uniform, and his supposed strength as a "ballhawk" was nonexistent.

Wing was extremely disappointing. Rosa's was up and down. His % looks worse due to a few blocked kicks that weren't his fault. This has to be the year Tom "Houdini" Quinn finally fails to dodge the axe. It's been long overdue.

[ny92mike]

6 hours ago, GMENNATION said:

Thought I'd put together a "roster confidence" post out there for you guys to react to. This isn't necessarily about the next 10-15 years but about putting together a roster for 2018. We have a lot of holes but also some good pieces in place that will hopefully allow us to compete next season.

RB: (6/10) Wayne Gallman, Paul Perkins - I liked what Gallman showed this year more than what Perkins did last year in the sense that he's decisive and runs HARD. I don't think he's a bell cow back but I think he can contribute. Perkins play was really disappointing and I'd rather not see him play any meaningful role moving forward. We need to draft/sign a few RBs regardless but neither guy signed up for next year can really take over games.

Perkins hasn't done much to warrant a roster spot, but I do think Gallman can be a solid runner for us, and I think Orleans did enough for us to bring him back.  Still wouldn't be surprised to see them bring in some veteran.  

The list of running backs in the fa this year don't look bad. https://overthecap.com/free-agency

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WR: (7/10) Odell Beckham Jr., Sterling Shepard, Brandon Marshall, Roger Lewis, Dwayne Harris, Travis Rudolph - We have 2 legit starters and Shepard showed me a lot in the second half of this year having big games when he was the only threat on the outside. The problem is the depth behind them. It's hard to believe Marshall or Harris would be back but either way, neither of them showed they had anything to offer. I like Roger Lewis at a WR4/ST but not more than that. Travis Rudolph is still a bit of a mystery so I can't place any confidence on him.

I wouldn't mind keeping Marshall, if we could get his cap number down, perhaps the injury age and the odds of getting much in free agency he'd be willing to accept a pay cut.  I also wouldn't mind seeing what the rookie Engram could do on the edge.  He's definitely got the speed and size to play the role.  We spent a lot of money on Rhett to see him walking the bench.

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OL: (2/10) Ereck Flowers, Chad Wheeler, Adam Bisnowaty, John Jerry, Brett Jones - Where do you place your most confidence in here? Brett Jones? Our best OL are not currently signed for next season and even if they were, we haven't shown that we can win with this group. Everyone knows this is Gettelman's top priority. 

Agree as it should be, its not only reflective of how the passing game and running game has struggled but T.O.P forced our defense on the field with fewer breaks.  The players we've got on the roster is pretty weak.  I think Flowers will remain on the roster to play right tackle and perhaps even backup.  Haven't seen enough of Adam but I did like his college tape.  John Jerry I'd release.  

We've got a major issue with getting an offensive line, I see us using these high draft picks to fill some holes.  With 30 million in cap, and the league average with close to 40 the cost of these players are going up as they do in FA.  I'm not as big on Pugh, so I'd be fine with letting him find another team next season, I would like to resign Richburg, I think he's a solid center and would be a cheaper signing than Pugh, who seems to bounce around the line and never really finding a home, not completely his fault because of injuries but he's no Snee. 

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DL: (8/10) Olivier Vernon, Jason Pierre-Paul, Damon Harrison, Dalvin Tomlinson, Romeo Okwara, Avery Moss - I understand the argument about the lack of pass rush but I'd bet on an improvement there. Most importantly, these guys are run defenders and while our defense was horrible this year, I don't think it was all their fault and believe in the improvement here.

I like the lineup, think with another signing or two we're good here.

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LB: (2/10) BJ Goodson, Calvin Munson, Curtis Grant, Ishaq Williams - woof. We have some FAs we could re-sign but they didn't do much either. An investment must be made here.

Agreed....Its been one of those positions much like the offensive line that has been neglected for years.  Time to get a legit starter in this lineup.

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CB: (1/10) Janoris Jenkins, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Eli Apple - DRC could be a cap casualty and Eli Apple is, well, no need to expand here. I'd bump this up to a 4/10 if I knew DRC was back because I think we could fill in the depth behind him and Jackrabbit but with so much uncertainty, this is our worst position group.

S: (8/10) Darian Thompson, Landon Collins, Andrew Adams - DT's season was a bit disappointing but it was essentially a rookie season and he got a ton of experience. His backup who came out of nowhere last year is still on the roster and depth can be obtained. 

I think this position will improve if we could find a team to unload Apple, with another team releasing him is costing us money we don't really have.  Wish we would of cashed in last year when the draft was loaded with talented corners.  Not sure what this draft class looks like just yet.

 

[Kip Smithers]

Looks like Apple is staying for now according to Gettleman

[bzane]

2 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

Looks like Apple is staying for now according to Gettleman

@Kip Smithers- How do you feel about that, Kip? Myself, I'm okay, in that his greatest issue is immaturity. Sort of a 21-year-old Momma's Boy, you know? But he still has physical tools, and, from a cost-effective standpoint, I'd rather they work with him and hope he grows up, instead of cutting a first-round draft pick so early in his career- and then watch him go straighten out and play well for another team.

[bzane]

On 1/3/2018 at 1:12 PM, GMENNATION said:

Thought I'd put together a "roster confidence" post out there for you guys to react to. This isn't necessarily about the next 10-15 years but about putting together a roster for 2018. We have a lot of holes but also some good pieces in place that will hopefully allow us to compete next season.

QB: (8/10) Eli Manning, Davis Webb - I have no reason to lack confidence in either of them, respective to their roles. I have no evidence to base anything with Davis Webb off of but if Eli Manning is our starting QB next year, I still have a lot of confidence in him. 

RB: (6/10) Wayne Gallman, Paul Perkins - I liked what Gallman showed this year more than what Perkins did last year in the sense that he's decisive and runs HARD. I don't think he's a bell cow back but I think he can contribute. Perkins play was really disappointing and I'd rather not see him play any meaningful role moving forward. We need to draft/sign a few RBs regardless but neither guy signed up for next year can really take over games.

WR: (7/10) Odell Beckham Jr., Sterling Shepard, Brandon Marshall, Roger Lewis, Dwayne Harris, Travis Rudolph - We have 2 legit starters and Shepard showed me a lot in the second half of this year having big games when he was the only threat on the outside. The problem is the depth behind them. It's hard to believe Marshall or Harris would be back but either way, neither of them showed they had anything to offer. I like Roger Lewis at a WR4/ST but not more than that. Travis Rudolph is still a bit of a mystery so I can't place any confidence on him.

TE: (9/10) Evan Engram, Rhett Ellison, Jerell Adams - It doesn't matter what system we're in next year, we hit on Evan Engram. Dude is a legit threat in the passing game and his blocking should continue to improve. Rhett Ellison is what he is but he's a pro. 

OL: (2/10) Ereck Flowers, Chad Wheeler, Adam Bisnowaty, John Jerry, Brett Jones - Where do you place your most confidence in here? Brett Jones? Our best OL are not currently signed for next season and even if they were, we haven't shown that we can win with this group. Everyone knows this is Gettelman's top priority. 

DL: (8/10) Olivier Vernon, Jason Pierre-Paul, Damon Harrison, Dalvin Tomlinson, Romeo Okwara, Avery Moss - I understand the argument about the lack of pass rush but I'd bet on an improvement there. Most importantly, these guys are run defenders and while our defense was horrible this year, I don't think it was all their fault and believe in the improvement here.

LB: (2/10) BJ Goodson, Calvin Munson, Curtis Grant, Ishaq Williams - woof. We have some FAs we could re-sign but they didn't do much either. An investment must be made here.

CB: (1/10) Janoris Jenkins, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Eli Apple - DRC could be a cap casualty and Eli Apple is, well, no need to expand here. I'd bump this up to a 4/10 if I knew DRC was back because I think we could fill in the depth behind him and Jackrabbit but with so much uncertainty, this is our worst position group.

S: (8/10) Darian Thompson, Landon Collins, Andrew Adams - DT's season was a bit disappointing but it was essentially a rookie season and he got a ton of experience. His backup who came out of nowhere last year is still on the roster and depth can be obtained. 

ST: (3/10) Brad Wing, Aldrick Rosas, Zak DeOssie - yeah, not much optimism here.

Two of our three worst position groups are positions we just spent top 10 picks on. That is insane! We need Flowers and Apple to turn it around next year. A few of these position groups will have higher grades with some signings but man, it is not pretty to start the offseason. Welcome aboard Gettelman.. It's going to be a long 8 months.

@GMENNATION  Great write-up, GMEN. Thought-provoking. One question: how do you feel about D.J. Fluker? I thought his powerful run-blocking was a revelation last year- the whole line seemed to play more physically when he was out there.