53-man roster moves: Agim, Muti, J-Johnson cut, Malik Reed traded; 3 players to IR

[broncos_fan _from _uk]

46 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

 

Interesting discussion. I can't even recognize what people call a WCO anymore. IMO unless you're using a fullback a lot and your base look is an I formation I don't think it's a WCO. Walsh or Shanahan could line up every play in an I and call an entire game from that and never repeat a play. Pre snap shifts, motion, and varying route tree's made that an incredibly tough offense to stop. 

Note this isn’t a response to just you. I love the history of the WCO and enjoy taking about it! The core of the Walsh WCO goes back to his days as the Bengals OC under Paul Brown when Virgil Carter was forced to start after the strong armed Greg Cook was injured. Walsh developed an offense that spread the field horizontally instead of vertically and used lots of pre snap shifts and movement to isolate favorable matchups. 
 

What Shanahan did was marry the Walsh WCO with the Gibbs ZBS. Note that Gibbs did not invent the ZBS.  Vince Lombardi did with his power sweeps. Gibbs learned these basics from Woody Hayes during his time at Ohio State. Then he (and Mike) learned the value of having the OL block the same whether it’s pass or run from Dan Reeves (who adapted it from Tom Landry). Together they built an offense built around a blocking scheme coupled with spreading the field horizontally and because they had John Elway as QB (arguably the greatest ever at that time of throwing on the run) they relied heavily on PA, Boots, and Woggles. 
 

the scheme has continued to evolve but that’s the basis of the shanahan WCO that persists today. Outside and Inside zone blocking that looks the same regardless of it it’s pass or run, moving pockets, and lots of pre snap movement. 

 

[grizmo78]

2 hours ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Note this isn’t a response to just you. I love the history of the WCO and enjoy taking about it! The core of the Walsh WCO goes back to his days as the Bengals OC under Paul Brown when Virgil Carter was forced to start after the strong armed Greg Cook was injured. Walsh developed an offense that spread the field horizontally instead of vertically and used lots of pre snap shifts and movement to isolate favorable matchups. 
 

What Shanahan did was marry the Walsh WCO with the Gibbs ZBS. Note that Gibbs did not invent the ZBS.  Vince Lombardi did with his power sweeps. Gibbs learned these basics from Woody Hayes during his time at Ohio State. Then he (and Mike) learned the value of having the OL block the same whether it’s pass or run from Dan Reeves (who adapted it from Tom Landry). Together they built an offense built around a blocking scheme coupled with spreading the field horizontally and because they had John Elway as QB (arguably the greatest ever at that time of throwing on the run) they relied heavily on PA, Boots, and Woggles. 
 

the scheme has continued to evolve but that’s the basis of the shanahan WCO that persists today. Outside and Inside zone blocking that looks the same regardless of it it’s pass or run, moving pockets, and lots of pre snap movement. 

 

Super interesting. Thanks for the history lesson! Any insight in how young Shannahan and McVay’s schemes have adapted from old Shannahan’s? Also what the effect of banning cut blocking has done to the scheme as well? 

[paul-mac]

Klis confirms Hamler, Chubb and Jeudy are on the block.

 

 

Chubb I get. He likely walks after the season and you might get a decent haul for him. IMO he’s worth a 1st round pick.

 

Hamler and Jeudy have far more potential than they’ve shown, though. I wouldn’t trade them for the ham sandwich offers they’re likely to fetch. I can understand if someone offers a 2nd for Jeudy but I think his likely value is less than that. Hamler will only get us a 5th or 6th and imo trading him that low would be a poor choice. 

[champ11]

3 hours ago, paul-mac said:

Klis confirms Hamler, Chubb and Jeudy are on the block.

 

 

Chubb I get. He likely walks after the season and you might get a decent haul for him. IMO he’s worth a 1st round pick.

 

Hamler and Jeudy have far more potential than they’ve shown, though. I wouldn’t trade them for the ham sandwich offers they’re likely to fetch. I can understand if someone offers a 2nd for Jeudy but I think his likely value is less than that. Hamler will only get us a 5th or 6th and imo trading him that low would be a poor choice. 

Plus our WR depth is so thin. If you trade the wideouts that's pretty much throwing in the towel. Hard to see that unless they get a really great offer

[AnAngryAmerican]

I’d hold onto Chubb unless someone offers a 2nd or better. 

Jeudy seems like a malcontent and while his raw talent is considerable he’s never even come close to living up to it, or his draft status. We used to brush it aside as the QB/OC situation was awful and while Russ/Hackett has proven as bad as Teddy/Shurmur, his attitude has to be part of the problem. 

I always though Hamler was over drafted, a classic Elway reach based off a few measurables and the hope of finding a Tyreek Hill 2.0, but unless someone offers a lot, hold onto him. 

[7DnBrnc53]

18 hours ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Note this isn’t a response to just you. I love the history of the WCO and enjoy taking about it! The core of the Walsh WCO goes back to his days as the Bengals OC under Paul Brown when Virgil Carter was forced to start after the strong armed Greg Cook was injured. Walsh developed an offense that spread the field horizontally instead of vertically and used lots of pre snap shifts and movement to isolate favorable matchups. 
 

What Shanahan did was marry the Walsh WCO with the Gibbs ZBS. Note that Gibbs did not invent the ZBS.  Vince Lombardi did with his power sweeps. Gibbs learned these basics from Woody Hayes during his time at Ohio State. Then he (and Mike) learned the value of having the OL block the same whether it’s pass or run from Dan Reeves (who adapted it from Tom Landry). Together they built an offense built around a blocking scheme coupled with spreading the field horizontally and because they had John Elway as QB (arguably the greatest ever at that time of throwing on the run) they relied heavily on PA, Boots, and Woggles. 
 

the scheme has continued to evolve but that’s the basis of the shanahan WCO that persists today. Outside and Inside zone blocking that looks the same regardless of it it’s pass or run, moving pockets, and lots of pre snap movement. 

 

Good synopsis, although Fran Tarkenton has claimed that they started the WCO (or something similar) with the 1967 Giants because they didn't have a good O-line (and they had to throw shorter passes). Also, Bud Grant once said something about how they were doing similar things in Minnesota with Fran. 

As for the trade rumors, what about O? Isn't he on the block as well? 

[jsthomp2007]

2 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I’d hold onto Chubb unless someone offers a 2nd or better. 

Jeudy seems like a malcontent and while his raw talent is considerable he’s never even come close to living up to it, or his draft status. We used to brush it aside as the QB/OC situation was awful and while Russ/Hackett has proven as bad as Teddy/Shurmur, his attitude has to be part of the problem. 

I always though Hamler was over drafted, a classic Elway reach based off a few measurables and the hope of finding a Tyreek Hill 2.0, but unless someone offers a lot, hold onto him. 

It seems like the emergence of guys like Hinton and Washington make the Jeudy and Hamler trades easy to make.  Hinton has been every bit as productive as Jeudy, and when you are in a really, really, really bad pinch, Hinton will play QB. 

[paul-mac]

We have added journeyman RB Marlon Mack following the injury to Boone yesterday.

 

The RB room is starting to feel like that 2008 year again where we had like 7 RBs on IR and also one point signed Tatum Bell away from his job selling cellphones. 

[Broncofan]

I have no idea if he's any good or not, but the fact that Tom Compton comes back, and Paton and the coaches thought highly of him, does probably offer a G option for depth if we do end up trading Risner.    Apparently Risner's drawing interest - if we can get a 3rd or 4th for him, that's a no-brainer to do, especially since retaining Risner seems like an iffy prop at market rates.    I'm not even sure we'd get an end-of-3rd comp pick for him if he did hit the market, and it would be 2024, and not guaranteed, regardless of his contract, since that formula incorporates how much we spend in big contracts, not just what we lose.

It was unclear if it was worth retaining him before the season, nothing's changed to make the case to keep him, so if we can get a decent pick, it's a no-brainer to go there and wish Risner well.

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Broncofan

[Dbrog24]

It's so crazy to see evidence that there could truly be a fire sale should we lose in London. Then again, I get to thinking and maybe it isn't so crazy. George didn't draft any of the guys that we would be trading and all have underperformed to expectations whereas most of his draft picks have overperformed or at least shown flashes. In some ways this could be George betting on himself, and history from his drafts show that could actually be a decent strategy. Again normal draft numbers don't support that he will have the type of hits he has had the past two years, but I couldn't really blame the guy for trying...especially when this team aint it (Hackett isn't the only reason we look THIS bad)

[Broncofan]

Given Hackett’s familiarity with him - I wouldn’t be surprised if Paton puts a claim on Amari Rodgers - who was waived by the Pack today.    
 

We’re about to find out if Tom Compton has any T ability - hate that Turner is out, he was the last swing T with any track record or NFL success left on the roster.    I’d also say we should move to a more 3-step drop back O, but that kind of adaptability has been non existent so far so seems unlikely.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by Broncofan

[broncosfan_101]

5 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Given Hackett’s familiarity with him - I wouldn’t be surprised if Paton puts a claim on Amari Rodgers - who was waived by the Pack today.    
 

We’re about to find out if Tom Compton has any T ability - hate that Turner is out, he was the last swing T with any track record or NFL success left on the roster.    I’d also say we should move to a more 3-step drop back O, but that kind of adaptability has been non existent so far so seems unlikely.  

3-step drops are a little tougher with short QB’s. Less separation between him and OL, and less time/space for the linemen to create passing lanes.

[Broncofan]

16 hours ago, broncosfan_101 said:

3-step drops are a little tougher with short QB’s. Less separation between him and OL, and less time/space for the linemen to create passing lanes.

Absolutely fair - but the slow developing routes play calls are beyond nuts with our OL protection issues.    With a week to prepare going to need to be way different than Sunday’s plan to succeed.   Not optimistic we’ll see any changes though.  

[grizmo78]

44 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Absolutely fair - but the slow developing routes play calls are beyond nuts with our OL protection issues.    With a week to prepare going to need to be way different than Sunday’s plan to succeed.   Not optimistic we’ll see any changes though.  

On the surface it seems like we're only calling slow developing routes but I think that's more so because Russ holds the ball longer than he's supposed to which gives it that appearance. IMO the blame right now is 50/50 on Russ (not reading the defense well, antsy feet, and holding the ball too long) and Hackett (Lack of preparation as evidenced by way too many pre-snap penalties). I've said this elsewhere, but Hackett seems to be too much of a people pleaser and that is affecting the quality of play. If Russ doesn't make measurable improvements in making the correct reads within the offense Hackett has designed, he needs to adjust the offense and simplify rather than continuing to get Russ's input. The hardest thing about that though is being on multiple 3rd string Olineman limits our ability to fall back onto the run game. 

Somewhat of a tangent, I'm annoyed about Hackett saying our problems are largely on converting 3rd down. Completely disagree. Our issue is we are worst in the league in first down yardage. We are CONSTANTLY in 3rd and 7+. 

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, grizmo78 said:

On the surface it seems like we're only calling slow developing routes but I think that's more so because Russ holds the ball longer than he's supposed to which gives it that appearance. IMO the blame right now is 50/50 on Russ (not reading the defense well, antsy feet, and holding the ball too long) and Hackett (Lack of preparation as evidenced by way too many pre-snap penalties). I've said this elsewhere, but Hackett seems to be too much of a people pleaser and that is affecting the quality of play. If Russ doesn't make measurable improvements in making the correct reads within the offense Hackett has designed, he needs to adjust the offense and simplify rather than continuing to get Russ's input. The hardest thing about that though is being on multiple 3rd string Olineman limits our ability to fall back onto the run game. 

Somewhat of a tangent, I'm annoyed about Hackett saying our problems are largely on converting 3rd down. Completely disagree. Our issue is we are worst in the league in first down yardage. We are CONSTANTLY in 3rd and 7+. 

Yeah, it's a lot easier to convert 3rd downs if you actually get positive yardage on the 1st 2 downs.   And again, I'm not suggesting we ONLY pass - but we're doing it the wrong way - by being completely predictable.   There's a reason why run-run-pass gets so criticized - with inefficient teams, it further increases the likelihood of 3-and-out.  The fact Hackett thinks we should be running better - besides the personnel issues (which are legit), the complete predictability of our play sequencing makes it 10x easier to defend.   It's all connected, yet he thinks in terms of such simple statements...that are repeated each week.  To say he's overmatched is just such an understatement.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Broncofan