The Ongoing Offensive Line Thread

[jimkelly02]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:58 AM, Darbsk said:

Brandon Parker was a third round pick too wasn’t he, and didn’t we trade up for him if I recall?

I don’t think we are in this situation because we didn’t spend resources, we just made poor to awful draft choices and FA signings. Pretty much every one here was positive on a guy like Morgan Moses, Nobody wanted Parker or Leatherwood, lots wanted Darrisaw and Spencer Brown. Can’t recall other years but it comes back again to our FO not paying attention to FF mocks 🤨

In all seriousness, no one can’t convince me I wouldn’t have done a better job as a GM then Mayock and McKenzie.  And I’m not some genius football guy, just an average fan who researches stuff.  In fact, I’ve got an excel file with who I would have drafted at the time the pick was made since 1996 and I by far outperformed the team.  Sadly, I was a child during some of that time and still did better.

if we just used a consensus more draft simulator to make our picks we’d have outperformed those guys.  That’s what they should have done and on da 3 occasionally pick a guy they were high on.  

[Darbsk]

5 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

In all seriousness, no one can’t convince me I wouldn’t have done a better job as a GM then Mayock and McKenzie.  And I’m not some genius football guy, just an average fan who researches stuff.  In fact, I’ve got an excel file with who I would have drafted at the time the pick was made since 1996 and I by far outperformed the team.  Sadly, I was a child during some of that time and still did better.

if we just used a consensus more draft simulator to make our picks we’d have outperformed those guys.  That’s what they should have done and on da 3 occasionally pick a guy they were high on.  

Yeh, I’m the same too! I write down my picks in a little notebook and the Me v Mayock/Gruden/Ziegler topic we have every year is one of my favourites. 

There are many here with much deeper football knowledge than me and I’ve significantly outperformed the FO and I would hazard a guess most here would have outperformed the FO pretty much every year given 1% of their resources, it really is frustrating when they make blindingly obvious mistakes.

[drfrey13]

44 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Yeh, I’m the same too! I write down my picks in a little notebook and the Me v Mayock/Gruden/Ziegler topic we have every year is one of my favourites. 

There are many here with much deeper football knowledge than me and I’ve significantly outperformed the FO and I would hazard a guess most here would have outperformed the FO pretty much every year given 1% of their resources, it really is frustrating when they make blindingly obvious mistakes.

The saddest part is not only would most posters beat the FO almost all draft gurus online would have.  We could have thrown a dart at a board with different online sites and did better almost every year.   2014 early draft and 2019 mid rounds are the only areas I was happy about.  I do not get how a franchise could be that bad.  Just by luck alone they should have done better.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

The saddest part is not only would most posters beat the FO almost all draft gurus online would have.  We could have thrown a dart at a board with different online sites and did better almost every year.   2014 early draft and 2019 mid rounds are the only areas I was happy about.  I do not get how a franchise could be that bad.  Just by luck alone they should have done better.

They could have put it on auto draft, went home to their families and the team would be in better shape.

[agarcia34]

I think the first thing the Raiders have to do is move Parham to Center. I think what the Raiders have gotten out of him this year has been good considering the circumstances. There has just times where he was just overwhelmed with size and showed that he’s not a OG. What happens with Andre James IDK maybe release 

Then they have to get better at the OG position. Should be a mix of draft pick and a vet. 
 

Jermaine Eluemunor has played well tbh. Wouldn’t mind him coming back and continue to let Munford learn behind him. 
 

The goal should be strengthening the middle of the OL

[jimkelly02]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

There are many here with much deeper football knowledge than me and I’ve significantly outperformed the FO and I would hazard a guess most here would have outperformed the FO pretty much every year given 1% of their resources, it really is frustrating when they make blindingly obvious mistakes.

I’ve wondered what part of the astronomical  draft bust rate over the last 25 years is attributed to coaching. 
some of those busts would have been busts on any team but others probably would have been good if they were drafted by better organizations. 

I’d love to see someone do a deep dive statistical analysis of how poorly we drafted.  It’s downright remarkable.

imagine he we had a policy of right before we sent the pick in we scrapped that player and went with other player we were considering.  We’d have been so much better off.

[Rolni]

I also think that we need to move Parham to OC full time and let that Andre James project die with a post June1 designation. That way we could finally have a competent center and we could save 5M too.

I have an interesting solution for that LG spot! Isaiah Wynn is a 6'2 310-ish dude, who played pretty well at LT earlier in his carrier in this scheme and I think could be a solid option for us as a LG. He has an injury package obviously, but that could push his price down and after he gets no LT deal on the market he might accept the LG role in a familiar scheme with familiar coaches. 

Nate Davis would be my target at RG. Durable, solid overall RG, who could help this OL a lot IMO!

Ike Boettger could be an option at LG. He seems to be ready to make his comeback from his Achilles injury soon, so he could be ready for the offseason program, which would be important for him in a new scheme. We could buy low and hopefully get lucky...

I would bring back Jermaine Eluemunor as RT/RG early in the offseason and then see what/who is available at RG or RT, check how Thayer Munford develops and then decide Elu's spot. I see Munford as a quality depth piece going forward, but he might just turn out to be more...I thought that we need to move him inside to stick around from the begining, but he already surprised me with his play at RT. 

Bring Alex Bars back as cheap back up for IOL with system knowledge. Netane Muti could be another depth guy, who is cheap and has system knowledge. Yodny Cajuste could be another option as depth IMO.

Miller-Boettger-Parham-Davis-Elu as the starting unit would be solid before the draft IMO. Munford, Bars, Cajuste, Muti would also be ok for depth before the draft IMO.

If we could end up with a solid OL rookie, who can challenge Boettger at LG, our OL could be in a solid state for Stidham or Brady or....

[Darbsk]

4 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’ve wondered what part of the astronomical  draft bust rate over the last 25 years is attributed to coaching. 
some of those busts would have been busts on any team but others probably would have been good if they were drafted by better organizations. 

I’d love to see someone do a deep dive statistical analysis of how poorly we drafted.  It’s downright remarkable.

imagine he we had a policy of right before we sent the pick in we scrapped that player and went with other player we were considering.  We’d have been so much better off.

This is a good point and one I posited in another thread some time ago. When you list the guys that went somewhere else and at least had decent careers it is puzzling. Guys like Shelby Harris, Denico Autry, Jack Crawford, Mike Mitchell, Joe Barksdale, Jihad Ward, Arden Key, even who’s looking up now. None of them are world beaters but they all achieved more elsewhere. 
Truth be told it’s probably been a bit of both. Jihad Ward, for example, was a terrible pick but also wasn’t developed like he needed to be either. He’s been on the Ravens for a while as a rotation player.

[Darbsk]

3 hours ago, Rolni said:

I also think that we need to move Parham to OC full time and let that Andre James project die with a post June1 designation. That way we could finally have a competent center and we could save 5M too.

I have an interesting solution for that LG spot! Isaiah Wynn is a 6'2 310-ish dude, who played pretty well at LT earlier in his carrier in this scheme and I think could be a solid option for us as a LG. He has an injury package obviously, but that could push his price down and after he gets no LT deal on the market he might accept the LG role in a familiar scheme with familiar coaches. 

Nate Davis would be my target at RG. Durable, solid overall RG, who could help this OL a lot IMO!

Ike Boettger could be an option at LG. He seems to be ready to make his comeback from his Achilles injury soon, so he could be ready for the offseason program, which would be important for him in a new scheme. We could buy low and hopefully get lucky...

I would bring back Jermaine Eluemunor as RT/RG early in the offseason and then see what/who is available at RG or RT, check how Thayer Munford develops and then decide Elu's spot. I see Munford as a quality depth piece going forward, but he might just turn out to be more...I thought that we need to move him inside to stick around from the begining, but he already surprised me with his play at RT. 

Bring Alex Bars back as cheap back up for IOL with system knowledge. Netane Muti could be another depth guy, who is cheap and has system knowledge. Yodny Cajuste could be another option as depth IMO.

Miller-Boettger-Parham-Davis-Elu as the starting unit would be solid before the draft IMO. Munford, Bars, Cajuste, Muti would also be ok for depth before the draft IMO.

If we could end up with a solid OL rookie, who can challenge Boettger at LG, our OL could be in a solid state for Stidham or Brady or....

Interesting option! I loved Isaiah Wynn as a prospect and I always thought he’d slip inside to guard. Like keeping Eluemunor and Munford too. Eluemunor has been ok not terrible and Munford has flashed considering his drafted position. I’d go shopping for guards in the draft in the 3rd to 5th rounds and liked Muti too as a mauler.

I’d bring in a pile of relatively cheap options inside and stick with the best couple after a camp competition. I’d really want a good player at LT, RT and OC and cheap guys at either guard spot, 3 of the 5 need to be good and we can get away with average for the other two.

[jimkelly02]

8 hours ago, Darbsk said:

This is a good point and one I posited in another thread some time ago. When you list the guys that went somewhere else and at least had decent careers it is puzzling. Guys like Shelby Harris, Denico Autry, Jack Crawford, Mike Mitchell, Joe Barksdale, Jihad Ward, Arden Key, even who’s looking up now. None of them are world beaters but they all achieved more elsewhere. 
Truth be told it’s probably been a bit of both. Jihad Ward, for example, was a terrible pick but also wasn’t developed like he needed to be either. He’s been on the Ravens for a while as a rotation player.

Ward was on Balt but is a Giant this year.  He started a bunch of games (I just checked and he’s started 11 of 16 games he’s played in- 657 snaps 62%).

Yeah, I had ongoing joke with a buddy that Mike Mitchell wasn’t even in draft books (which list 500 prospects) and that might be the first time ever that’s happened…. Crazy for a mid 2nd rounder but he had a pretty nice and long career.

Its really hard for draft picks that bust to latch on to a new team… the new team has nothing invested in them and there’s usually 2-3 other guys competing for that job and they likely don’t have the ST experience (which is usually required of backups) due to the starting with us.  So they really gotta make an impression and quickly.  

I think part of it is we over drafted many of them and thus they were cast into starting roles without developing more prior to playing but also we did a poor job developing them while they started .  Lastly, HC and coordinator turn over could have them being developing at least okay but then the next year their in a scheme that doesn’t fit them.  They play poorly or we abandon them prematurely for someone who fits.  
 

in the case of Arden Key maybe my memory is fuzzy but wasn’t he doing well in practices but then in games he wasn’t allowed to do moves or techniques he was better at in favor for what coaches wanted?  I think stubborn coaches held him back.

[Darbsk]

6 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Ward was on Balt but is a Giant this year.  He started a bunch of games (I just checked and he’s started 11 of 16 games he’s played in- 657 snaps 62%).

Yeah, I had ongoing joke with a buddy that Mike Mitchell wasn’t even in draft books (which list 500 prospects) and that might be the first time ever that’s happened…. Crazy for a mid 2nd rounder but he had a pretty nice and long career.

Its really hard for draft picks that bust to latch on to a new team… the new team has nothing invested in them and there’s usually 2-3 other guys competing for that job and they likely don’t have the ST experience (which is usually required of backups) due to the starting with us.  So they really gotta make an impression and quickly.  

I think part of it is we over drafted many of them and thus they were cast into starting roles without developing more prior to playing but also we did a poor job developing them while they started .  Lastly, HC and coordinator turn over could have them being developing at least okay but then the next year their in a scheme that doesn’t fit them.  They play poorly or we abandon them prematurely for someone who fits.  
 

in the case of Arden Key maybe my memory is fuzzy but wasn’t he doing well in practices but then in games he wasn’t allowed to do moves or techniques he was better at in favor for what coaches wanted?  I think stubborn coaches held him back.

I think you might be into something there! The combination of over drafting and then chopping and changing systems, like with Mitchell he’s not really a cover safety then maybe being asked to play in a two high which he’s not suited to then whilst he’s still young having a few systems a coordinators is a recipe for failure. He goes to Pittsburgh where they’ve had the same or similar system for ages and they know how to use him and he has a long and productive career, I really liked him too after we drafted him.

Same with Arden Key really, apparently he said Paul Guenther told him not to rush certain ways and of course he was used as a base end when now with the Jags he’s a rotation rush specialist and getting production. I think we wanted him to put on mass too which was a mistake. Ferrell has been similar where he’s changed body mass a few times and been used in different ways and it’s a recipe for failure, though of course he was over drafted too. Ward I hated as a pick though he needed a system and development and whilst he was way over drafted we failed at developing him also. Shelby Harris has been a good player for years at an area of real weakness for us, as did Autry so we really missed on those two. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

22 hours ago, Darbsk said:

This is a good point and one I posited in another thread some time ago. When you list the guys that went somewhere else and at least had decent careers it is puzzling. Guys like Shelby Harris, Denico Autry, Jack Crawford, Mike Mitchell, Joe Barksdale, Jihad Ward, Arden Key, even who’s looking up now. None of them are world beaters but they all achieved more elsewhere. 
Truth be told it’s probably been a bit of both. Jihad Ward, for example, was a terrible pick but also wasn’t developed like he needed to be either. He’s been on the Ravens for a while as a rotation player.

Barksdale dam oldie but goodie i always liked him at rt irrc

[jimkelly02]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:24 AM, Rolni said:

I also think that we need to move Parham to OC full time and let that Andre James project die with a post June1 designation. That way we could finally have a competent center and we could save 5M too.

I have an interesting solution for that LG spot! Isaiah Wynn is a 6'2 310-ish dude, who played pretty well at LT earlier in his carrier in this scheme and I think could be a solid option for us as a LG. He has an injury package obviously, but that could push his price down and after he gets no LT deal on the market he might accept the LG role in a familiar scheme with familiar coaches. 

Nate Davis would be my target at RG. Durable, solid overall RG, who could help this OL a lot IMO!

Ike Boettger could be an option at LG. He seems to be ready to make his comeback from his Achilles injury soon, so he could be ready for the offseason program, which would be important for him in a new scheme. We could buy low and hopefully get lucky...

I would bring back Jermaine Eluemunor as RT/RG early in the offseason and then see what/who is available at RG or RT, check how Thayer Munford develops and then decide Elu's spot. I see Munford as a quality depth piece going forward, but he might just turn out to be more...I thought that we need to move him inside to stick around from the begining, but he already surprised me with his play at RT. 

Bring Alex Bars back as cheap back up for IOL with system knowledge. Netane Muti could be another depth guy, who is cheap and has system knowledge. Yodny Cajuste could be another option as depth IMO.

Miller-Boettger-Parham-Davis-Elu as the starting unit would be solid before the draft IMO. Munford, Bars, Cajuste, Muti would also be ok for depth before the draft IMO.

If we could end up with a solid OL rookie, who can challenge Boettger at LG, our OL could be in a solid state for Stidham or Brady or....

I thought cajuste was going to be a average starting RT but he was too injury prove early on and hasn’t stepped up the last two years, which also had some Injuries.

[Nightmare]

7 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Barksdale dam oldie but goodie i always liked him at rt irrc

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 minutes ago, Nightmare said:

Lol